Rewording and clarifications

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Studio
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Rewording and clarifications
Karlakarlen
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Berserk mentions berserk and impetous tokens, accurate?

GCT Master Enos
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Yes, as soon as a model becomes Berserk it also gains an impetuous marker.  This is correct.

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Sora9785
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Is premeasurement allowed?

Under Measuring Distances  the third point mentions:

"Measurements, whether distances LOS or other measurements may be taken at any time for any reason by either player. In timed play the player who’s clock is running always has priority and should not be obstructed by opponents measuring devices."

 

It could be read as:

1) You can always measure anything, anytime

or 

2) When something has to be measured

Sora9785
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Okay I found the Tournament measurement rules... 

GCT Master Enos
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You can measure anything at any time for any reason.

In Tournaments there is an option to allow measurement only when actions are declared.

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Meavar
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Held and immobilised seem to have switched around (no problem if it also changed in the cards).
 

Meavar

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Yes, the terms "Held" and "Immobilised" were confusing to new players so we swapped them as they fit the effect and "Kayfabe" of the abilities better.

Also for the same reason, the order of numbers on Poison, Bleed and Fire were switched.

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Sgnappa
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two quick questions:

1) the event Orochi's Gaze has a cost of X. This mean that I can get it for 0 points?

2) The lord of Izu theme say that poison damage ignores tough. In the rules I read that poison make damage as well, nothing to say about tough. This means that a tough model reduce poison/fire damage by his tough trait?

Sora9785
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Fire ignores Toughness @Sgnappa

If a model with toughnes has 4 poison 1 markers onto does it suffer no wound or 1 wound (1 wound from the highest marker and another from 3 of the same marker, is it reduced to 1 or is it canceled?)

Wink de Groot
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Hi,

the use of words on page 29 targeting a model in btb is confusing. It reads like the this is a test to see if you hit your friendly model not the targeted enemy model. Took me a while to get it.

hope it helps,

wink

Sora9785
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If a ki 1 model wants to engage a model with fear and dread, does it have still 1 die or what?

the fear model would gain a die but cant benefit from it

skydancer
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Dread (X): Models making a fear test against this model reduce their Ki statistic by X.  This cannot reduce the number of dice rolled below 1 die.

What is totally broken in the rules now is that a samurai with ki 2 of 22 point have more trobule engaging ikyrio than any low rise cost models with war cry (6).

Honestly the new ki/opposed ki test system feel very unfair right now.

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To me, I'd like that fearsome models aren't immune to fear.

Having Fear/5 immunize you against Fear 5 or less, why? Yes you shout your best war cray but you are already facing an horror.

Saburo for example has Fear/4, yes he's a brave fighter but fear is something suffer by others, why he isn't scared as other guys to engage a Kirai? Maybe adding some Bravery or Courage to this models can simulate insane courage, or simply cowardly creatures ugly enough to scare you but not really brave.

 

A War Cry 6 shouldn't be able to engage a demon like Ikirio only shouting, he has to be brave: maybe a War Cry feat not only scare others, but gives you Courage as well.

Sora9785
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Summonig a bakemomo: can you summon a rinsho or is it a special bakemono? What qualifies a special bakemono?

@skydancer thanks didnt read through The skill

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Oni slaves have Ki 1 and Spirit -1. Do they even get the use this -1 because they would then have 0 dice 

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Soulles does not automatically pass ki target/chalenge test, just opposed ki test and fear test, and most ki target tests do not seem to specify it cannto target soulless anymore. does this mean they now must test normally (usually with ki 0)
Does this mean they automatically fail (since they have 0 dice) or do they get 1 dice minimum?

Meavar

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Soulles does not automatically pass ki target/chalenge test, just opposed ki test and fear test, and most ki target tests do not seem to specify it cannto target soulless anymore. does this mean they now must test normally (usually with ki 0)
Does this mean they automatically fail (since they have 0 dice) or do they get 1 dice minimum?

Meavar

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You always roll at least one dice.

GCT Master Enos
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Funny how many of these were in the last edition too  :)

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maldoror42
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Hi,

 

I've seen that you have added another table for the wound table. Is this just to explain the strengh of the modifiers or this one modifies the calculation of the current table?

Tks,

Maldoror42

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The 2 tables are the same, just presented differently.

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Are unsui monks still monks for the purposes of righteous warriors acceptance criteria and is it intentional that animals are no longer allowed, removing koji's pack and the silver back as options in the theme?
Thanks,

Axiam

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Unsui Monks are both 

  • Monk
  • Unsui

Similarly Master Monks are both

  • Monk
  • Master

 

Note this passage from the theme list rules:

Some models, when recruited into a warband permit other models to be recruited.  Other models may require another model to be recruited before they can be included.  If a model is permitted in a Theme then any model it allows to be recruited is also permitted in the theme.

Example:  Aiko is recruited into the Righteous Warriors Theme, Silverback can now be recruited even though animals, gorillas and Silverback are not listed in the Permitted models.

Example:  Dafukaia allows Ronin Fire Kami to be taken in a list so any theme that permits Dafukaia can also recruit Ronin Fire Kami if Dafukaia is recruited.

If a model is permitted in a theme list, any model summoned by that model is also permitted.

 

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#facepalm
Well look at me glossing over the rules to get at the ones I want to read and missing bits. Thanks for the answer!

Axiam

maldoror42
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P49 Huge: This model is the Huge Size. Model’s Targeting this model with a Ranged Attack
action gain a -2 modifier to the Challenge Number of the test.  Huge models automatically
succeed on Size Tests.

Or for Huge target, the modifier is -3 p28...

 

maldoror42

Axiam
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Hi Jason,

Am I right in thinking that 'place within x' hasn't changed in the Risen Sun version? I can't find a specific text deals with it in the new rules beyond the 'measuring distances' section: when measuring if a model or point is within a given range then exactly up to that range is
considered within. E.g. if the edge of a model’s base is exactly 6" away from its Opponent’s base it is considered to be within 6".
Does that also apply for place within or are places now 'completely within'?

Thanks!

Axiam

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Me and three pals from the gaming group think it is better wording and explanations overall in the rules and the on the cards. But a few things have caught our eye and here are our thoughts about it.  

General thoughts: 

We think upgrade cards to the factions are too cheap. 1 rice is almost for free in a 100p list.  

Model count creep. Is this intentional? Bushido has always been about making hard choices in our group but with 1-2 models more we think there could be an activation game instead where the faction with the most activations will be op. We would just mention this for something for GCT to consider. 

Rulebook:

p 6 Killed , “...remove from table” wouldn´t “...remove from play” be better? Or is it illegal to place the model on its card on the same table ;) 

P 6 Line of sight. “Smaller models do not block LoS ... larger models” Is this always true? Does this mean that a larger model can draw LoS straight through a smaller model? (Ex. A smaller model standing on a hill) 

P 7Size, it feels strange to have a normal sized model (30mm) to be named small and not medium... 

p5-8 Strange to have rules in the terms and concepts section. Most posts just state what the word means here but some, ZoC for example, has lots of rules in it.  

p 17 Main phase. 2a, from this point you may use active feats. 5. the active player may use active feats. Which is true? Can you use them all the time after 2a or just in the 5 window 

P 20 “When using the Bushido Token set, add 2 counters with” Is it sound to still produce the tokens in the current form? If not why write it down in the rulebook (printed version) 

P 21 Simple Ki feat. Why write that only some feats can be combined with a walk action. Can’t all simple ki feats be combined with a walk action (unless stated in the feat) 

P 22 charge. Why state that only instant and active abilities may be used with a charge action? What about all the other actions, can you use more abilities there? 

P 22 Focus. Should have the “no movement” icon instead of writing the same rules out in plain text? 

P 22 Scenario actions have the “no movement” icon but they still change facing which is considered movement? 

P 24 The way challenge tests are described our conclusion is that 8 is the top number you can get. 6 +2 support dice. At least one character has a challenge test 9 in its profile (Sukochi Kani 

P24 size tests. Why autofail if 0 dice when previously you state that you always roll at least 1 dice. (P 23 “a model’s Statistic value used for an Opposedor Challenge test is 0 or less the player still rolls a single die. “) 

P27 Why check for ammo and reload counters so late in the process? 

P 28, to avoid confusion add “small +/- 0” to the modifiers 

P28. Size modifiers have changed for ranged attacks. Is this necessary when at least we feel that ranged attacks are very good as they are. We can feel that the kusari ranged weapon could be balanced better. It becomes almost auto hit on larger opponents which results in a prone miniature. We belive large miniatures suffers to much from this. 

P29 surprised, shouldn’t the rules for this be with the other states? Same with cover, if I want to see if I can charge a model with camouflage, I need to look up the rules for range attacks, that feels wrong. 

P29 target in BtB. Why isn’t this in the list after point 4 instead of just saying that it should be? Also should not this test be earlier? Right now, you base the damage on the successlvl of a roll made against another target counting its modifiers (surprised, running, large etc) 

P 30 Melee in the first text it says that the active player attacks first, this is wrong it should say that the model with initiative attacks first, correct? 

P 33 Surprised, combine with range attack surprised and move to states? 

P 35 posh back attack and force back attack, why ZoC in one case and 1” in the other. Should be the same? (same with defence) 

P 37 “if a model has x marker it is considered x” why doesn’t all states have this in the beginning?  

P 37 Berserk, you only gain one impetuous marker so if you get berserk before activating the second activation can be made when the player chooses but must still obey the rules for berserk? 

Also “aggressive” should be “aggressive trait”? 

P 37 Blind. Why state that Six sense has immunity? It already says so in the Six sense rule. It will complicate the rulebook with cross references and updating will be hard. Same with the charge reference, it states that you cannot charge but can you make a range attack etc? 

P 37 Controlled. Uses the word marker, token and counter. Why use different words for the same thing? (Not specifically an controlled issue) 

P 37 Death Sentence: You get +1 on damage rolls against the model. Powerful Attack says you get +3 Strength. Why different wordings? 

P 37 Held: “Defensive” should be “defensive trait”. Is it clear who the holding model is? Guess so but still... 

P 38 Prone: if you only may declare a stand up action. Why state that you may not walk and charge?  

P 40 Ki feats. Strange to read about that you may walk with while doing a ki feat under the “no movement” heading. Same for all ki feats. Would make more sense to have all the positive stuff in the beginning and then the negative icons. 

P 49 Immovable. “Cannot gain any prone markers” should be Immunity (prone) ? 

P52 Slow. “During a melee exchange, this model will lose the initiative if it is the attacker.” Why use “attacker”? You are always both attacker and defender...Probobly mean active model or that you always act last?

Hope this helps :)

/Uven
 

Axiam
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Can we please add 'only' to the final sentence of the split attack wording? Current rules taken as written would mean you are attempting to take an activation counter away after exhausting yourself by hitting step 14 twice and for a third engagement would be exhausted as nothing suggests the split attack active model ignores step 14 currently.

Axiam

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The creep issue is a very persistent matter, and as mentioned above it's pretty much an activation game (unless Rashka cannot be shut down). I think part of solving it were the changes in the fear ruling, where many Ki1 characters will be heavily hindered.

maldoror42
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For the traits Booted and Cavalry, the action of Walk is free or no? (whitout spend any activation counter)

 

Thanks

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They’re free.

TheChojin
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morning,

just looked at the studio post. Do you want me to ask Siobhan to do a spell/punctuation and grammer check as she did for the second ed pre print PDF draft?

ToadChild
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I feel like the enhancement card traits (pg 12) could use some cleanup

Equipment: This represents a physical item. A model may have only one Equipment card attached to it.

This is redundant because the enhancement cards already say that a model can have only one, and confusing because it implies that if the card weren't equipment, it might be allowed to have multiples.

Multiple (X): This card can be purchased for a Warband up to X times.

This should reference cards that allow multiple copies of the same unit to be taken. Right now it's not clear that it affects multiple models of the same unit, rather than multiple distinct units, or the same model multiple times.

ToadChild
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In Warband Composition, pg 15

Example: The “Imperial Forces” List is popular, it includes only Ronin models with the Imperial Type. This list must be a Prefecture, Ito or Silvermoon Syndicate list. It is not a “Ronin Faction” list as this is not permitted.

In Ronin cards, pg 17

The Imperial MarchTheme
● After deployment choose one enemy model to gain a Death Sentence Marker.
● Enemy models cannot spend Ki to remove Death Sentence Markers.
Permitted (Imperial Models)

These names should match

ToadChild
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On both Opposed Tests (pg 23) and Challenge Tests (pg 24) I think there should be an extra step between steps 2 and 3 that says to discard any dice from your pool that rolled a 1. It's mentioned in the preceding paragraphs under the Tests heading, but I think it should be explicitly mentioned in the resolution steps.

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Checked this far!

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

ToadChild
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Blood of Orochi (X): ​​During the Starting Phase add X Blood of Orochi tokens to a pool. You may place up to 2 tokens from the pool on any Friendly Ito Clan card. Models with Blood of Orochi tokens have Poison (1/Y) where Y is the number of tokens on their card.

This doesn't have any language about when the effects expire; the old rule said that they gained Poison until the end phase and that unspent Blood of Orochi tokens were lost.

The new wording is also not clear whether you can do this to just one model, or as many models as you have Blood of Orochi tokens to afford. (Can be read as "you can place up to 2 tokens on any one card")

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Under Bodyguard:
If the Enemy model has Fear, the bodyguard must pass a feat test.

Should be "fear test", not "feat test".

Charging Bonus [Bonus]: ​​When this model makes a Charge action it gains the bracketed Bonus until the end of its current activation. If the bonus is a Weapon Trait then it applies to all valid weapons. This trait may also be a weapon trait, if so the bonus only applies when choosing this weapon.

Last two sentences are the same information.

Cloudwalk: ​​When this model moves it ignores Terrain elements, other models, and Zones of Control while moving for the duration of the move. This does not allow a model to move out of Melee unless it also has the Agile trait.

Not a change since the previous edition, but it's not clear to me if this allows a model to end a walk/run inside an enemy's ZoC.

Cultist (X): ​​When this model activates it may inflict up to X wounds on any Friendly model(s) including itself that have this trait, up to its X value. This model gains Ki Tokens equal to the number of wounds inflicted. A model cannot suffer more wounds than the X value of its own Cultist trait each turn. These wounds ignore Toughness.

This should probably have a line saying a model cannot suffer more wounds from this effect than it has unmarked wounds remaining.

Heal (X): ​​This model may declare a Simple action and attempt to enter BtB with another non-soulless model by moving up to its Move Statistic. If, at the end of its movement, it is in BtB with the chosen model Heal X marked wounds from the Wound Track of the chosen model.

1. Can a model no longer heal itself with this ability? (... *another* non-soulless model...)
2. Are there any restrictions on that movement re: enemy ZoC and BtB? It says Move, not Walk, so I'm guessing not.

Leadership [Type](X/Y”): ​​Whilst within Y” Friendly [Type] models add X to the highest dice when taking a Fear Test. If in range of multiple models with Leadership, use only the highest X value.

This says to add the modifier to the highest die instead of to the result. Is this an intentional difference from other traits? How is this resolved if the highest die was a 1?

Order [Type](X/Y”): ​​This model may declare a Complex action, Order: This model immediately nominates X Friendly models of the Type specified within Y". Those models’ gain one Activation counter.

Is it possible for a model to have more than two activation counters as a result of this ability?

Pack (X/Y”): ​​When this model activates, choose X non-exhausted friendly models with the Pack trait within Y” to also activate. This model and each model chosen must declare a melee or charge action against the same target. Each model resolves any movement before any Melee Exchanges are resolved. Melee Exchanges are then resolved in the order the Controlling player chooses.

This rule should probably say "choose up to X" rather than "choose X".

What if there are not X legal models nearby? Presumably that is ok, and you just continue.

Is it legal to choose to not activate a Pack model that is within Y" even if I have not chosen X other models? I.e. can I choose to activate my Pack models one at a time, even if they are close together?

Parry (X): ​​This model adds X to the Defence result when calculating its final Defence result in Melee Exchanges.

Does this work even if you allocated 0 dice to defense? Or if you rolled all 1s for defense?

Poison (X/Y): ​​When this model inflicts wounds through a Melee Exchange or Ranged Attack with this weapon on a non-soulless model, the Enemy model gains X Poison Y markers.

This is green, indicating that it's a weapon trait, but Blood of Orochi grants poison to the model, not their weapons.

Rapid Fire (X): ​​When this model declares a Ranged Attack action it may resolve up to X Ranged Attacks during the activation. These Ranged Attacks may Target different models and are resolved in the order this model’s Controller chooses. Each attack may use a different weapon. Remove only one activation counter regardless of the number of Ranged Attacks made by Rapid Fire.

Within this one action, do attacks after the first apply the +1 target number modifier for the attacker already having resolved a ranged attack this turn?

Reach:​​ While using this weapon, this model gains the Initiative for the first Melee Exchange with an Enemy model if it started the Melee Exchange not in BtB with it, or another Enemy model. If both models in a Melee Exchange have this trait then neither gains the benefit.

I'm not sure what the context for "the first melee exchange" is. First this turn? First since the two entered BtB, regardless of the number of turns that have passed? Is it the first per enemy model, or the first one for the model with reach? What if a model with Reach is charged by multiple enemies in the same turn? etc.

Fire (X,Y), Poison (X, Y) - the meanings of X and Y have reversed since the prior edition of the rules. The new order parses a little better, but it'll probably confuse older players.

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I also just noticed that Command excludes itself (... up to X *other* non-exhausted friendly models of [type] within Y inches) but Order does not (... X friendly models of the Type specified within Y")).

I haven't checked all the stat cards to make sure Order is properly gated by keywords so that a model cannot order itself, but it should probably be in the ability just for safety.

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I did eventually figure out what the wording of Reach means, but I still think it could be rephrased for more clarity.

GCT Master Enos
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I did eventually figure out what the wording of Reach means, but I still think it could be rephrased for more clarity.

Its really hard for me to do this because it makes sense to me (Possibly just me) so if anyone wants to suggest wording that would help.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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While using this weapon, this model gains the Initiative for the first Melee Exchange with an Enemy model if it started the Melee Exchange not in BtB with it, or another Enemy model. If both models in a Melee Exchange have this trait then neither gains the benefit.

I think I lost track of which model the "it" was referring to. Specifically, "... if *it* started the melee exchange not in btb with *it*, or another enemy model.". Swapping around which it refers to which model makes the rule not make any sense at all.

I think it would be easier to read as something like...

If this model started this activation not in BtB with any enemy models, it gains the Initiative for the first Melee Exchange of the activation. If both models in a Melee Exchange have this trait then neither gains the benefit.

That way there's no possibility of ambiguous pronouns. I'm a little uncertain if I kept the right language around the "first melee exchange" bit, because I'm not 100% certain what ability interaction that's trying to guard against.

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It is basicly a copy paste of first strike but linking the rule to a certain type of weapon and with the last sentence added that neither can benefit. Maybe toadchilds version is easier to read, just add the while using this weapon part. But i understand the original version without problem to be honest.

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While using this weapon, this model gains the Initiative for the first Melee Exchange with an Enemy model if it started the Melee Exchange not in BtB with it, or another Enemy model. If both models in a Melee Exchange have this trait then neither gains the benefit.

  • This is covered by the subsequent clause, isn't it?
  • How can you start a Melee Exchange not in BtB with an enemy model?
    Should this be Melee or Charge Action, or just Activation (to cover weird placement stuff)?

My suggestion:

This weapon grants this model the Initiative at Step X of a Melee Exchange, provided it was not in BtB with its opponent or another Enemy model at the start of the current Activation.
If both models in a Melee Exchange would benefit from this Trait then neither benefits.

HMK
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About the masamune upgrade card. How does that combine with weak/strong? The way i read the card a model with those attributes roll 3+1 dice and have extremly improved odds of triggering critical attack. Don't think you have somebody strong atm, but the new old guy has weak, and assuming that carries over to the new edition, he would be very very dangerous. I would consider adding restriction model with weak/strong to that card.

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Some things I've noted from giving a run down of the KKZ character changes that are possibly mistakes:
1) I know I've mentioned this before but for completeness Katsumi's Ten Uchi ki feat is not in line with the new trait and weapon wording styles, is the ki cost accurate as well as other models have had a reduction in cost for this same effect.
2) Wamu has some old wording in his special text as it states start phase but can gain evasive until the end of the action? Is this supposed to match Ujimushi with the potential to gain 3ki per round?
3) Karapan was formerly a 2 track profile is this no longer the case or is it just not recorded accurately in the temp card?
If I think of more I'll let you know.
Thanks,

Axiam

GCT Master Enos
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Ten Uchi should be identical to Hiro's feat.  It will get the new wording and cost 3.

Karapan is still 2 wound tracks.

 

 

 

Please playtest Masamune upgrade with Kintoki's Salt and Uncle Mako (He's in the next update).

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

HMK
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Neither of those cards have the stackable trait so wouldn't that be impossible? In fact, stackable isn't in the new rules. I used the search function, and its there in new dawn but not in risen sun. So maybe that is missed since some enhancments still refer to stackable. Very few does tho, i figurered that was for balancing purposes, no?

Ret-Fleafa
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Stackable has gone. All Enhancements are effectively Stackable. Equipment is not.

GCT Master Enos
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Enhancements are no longer limited to 1 per model. 

Equipment is limited to 1 per model.

This is clear in the next update.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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