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HMK
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Don´t know if this should really go under profiles or general comment. But the upgrade cards...

I think the eye patch for jung really really needs to be limited to 2 ki profiles! Otherwise, it will always go on a korusea, and that´s just boring. I think the significant change in how much rice you gain for "upgrading" to an eye patch is fine. If it is limited to 2 ki, you get to make a choice that matters, do i want to save rice and be fine with being a crappy shot and expose myself a bit more to enemy ranged attacks or not? But making a korusea (or will it even affect 2 korusea?) cost only 6 rice is a gimme. That´s 2 free bounty cards for a guy that you rarley uses for ranged attacks anyway and isn´t to important to worry if he can´t benefit from cover.  

On the other hand, the peg leg became next to useless in this edition. I can´t find a single profile i´m giving up the ability to run and charge for a measly 1 rice. No way josé. Maybe if this upgrade unlike the eye patch wasn´t limited to 2 ki profiles i would possibly consider it for a kohanin or something,.. Also instead of being excluded for profiles with lightfooted, i would have them lose that trait with a peg leg.

 

Early
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A question regarding fear. Is it correct that a "Fear (5)" model is immune to another "Fear (5)" model, but is as susceptable to a Fear (6) Model as any other model without "Fear (X)"? This seem quite weird to me.

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According to the current rules, yes. Fear 3, 4, and 5 models are not immune to fear and so can be frightened of scarier monsters than themselves.

Axiam

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One thing that has come up with the new mechanic is that quite often, re-rolls in melee has no inpact on the outcome. I'm thinking in particular of martial prowes vs things like parry or brutal. Let's say i roll 3 dice in attack and my opponent rolls 3 in defence with parry. If he gets 6 on any die and avoids any die being 1 there is no way of catching up as before, you could always get lucky with prowes for an additional 6. Specially if that could avoid any special defence like throw, push, sidestep or whatever to trigger. I find it less of an issue with prowes to your own defensive dice since even before, unless the outcome ment a lot to the game, a low sucesslevel against you might be more worth it then trying to get that lucky re-roll or even make your result worse. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say here. Anyway, the mechanic in general works fine and the good far outweighs the bad. But with parry, rolling 3 or more dice in defense, the odds are a bit to favoured for that model. Now, i don't think this is breaking the game, but i do think this might re-evaluate a bit what a skill is worth. Prowess is in my mind still good to have, but not as valueble in risen sun as it was in new dawn while parry and to some externt brutal, altough very very good before, got even more value. New skills like adept and kata also affects martial Prowess. If you roll 6 on any of your dice with kata, prowes becomes redundant. I'm thinking feint and dodge might be better skills than prowes in this edition. So i don't know if this has been raised during play testing before, but i just wanted to say it. My solution would be some rice adjustments according to those traits. I belive samurai might be suffering a bit from this, i would also be very restrictive of combining parry with things like throw defence, it's just to easy to pull of with no drawback.

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About animals. I don't know, is it really the intent that everybody with that description can't participate in anything but zones in risen sun? I think it is fine for the cheap ones, but the expensive models becomes almost unplayable, even more so if the rest of the warband is only high rc profiles. Particulary Karapan suffers...but also nian in alphas becomes very dificult to justify, even with yushua. And I'm sure there are others too. The bakemono riders got animal in their description too. Big snake in ito maybe (i havn't looked at it's rules while writing this) ? I think this rule is problematic, i would prefer a text with this model may not perform scenario actions for those not intended to be insignificant as well (with the drawbacks that comes with that trait).. Or maybe simpler,this model may perform scenario actions for those that should be able to, otherwise pricy animals might need a massive reduction in rice to be playable. It is a scenario first game after all.

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Please be aware that descriptions are not the same as traits, animal as a restrictive trait will appear with the other traits. Riders do not have animal as a trait.

Axiam

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That might be the case, but that is incredibly easy to misinterpret and lead to confusion. And with the talk of limited space for text and what not, it seems a very bad way of doing things.

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The Animal trait is to be re-named something more generic when we think of it.
We need to consider non-animals who may need the trait.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Sgnappa
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After some other games, other considerations on the Ito.

 

 

I don’t own yet neither Taiesi or Yuui, but I would compare them to Chiyo – everyone there costs 13 Rice. I found Taisei and Yuui easier to use and the 2 Ki stat is very strong – better against fear, disguise, and better use their feats and boosts. In a Blessed theme where Chiyo and Temple Bushi could shine (by having Vengeance), I could choose the 2 nagas or a JMG to guard my Shisai. In a Lords of Izu theme, Chiyo (and Temple Bushi) could be very strong against poisoned enemies but you have better options, like Jirou (2 Ki) and JMG to fight fear, Hitoshi to get a “simple” infantry and useful model.

12+ Rice implies they cannot benefit of Jirou Inspiration as well in that theme.

 

So 12 Rice is really too much for me.

 

I would like to feel them as “fluff” models, fighters that you can encounter when you fight a “pure” Ito clan – they goes out their temple only in some special situations: there are other Ashigaru for fighting other battles, they are an elite among other Bushi.

 

My suggestion is: drop the cost to 10 Rice (maybe 11-12 for Chiyo since SSD and Cloudwalk is really good tactical skills). 10-11 Rice implies that can benefit from Jirous Inspirations. Maybe Temple Bushi could have SSD as well since he is an Elite fighter, Hitoshi for 10 Rice has it. DROP VENGEANCE.

So if you play in a non-themed list, they should be less than average infantry, and I guess you have better options: this is good, because they don’t fight regulare battles, but their presence are required only where more of the clan goes to war.

Give them some “special effects” in the themed list: for example, they can get Vengeance against poisoned models in the Blessed theme, so you WANT to include them. In the Izu theme something else: a trait like light-footed (adding a really different option from other fighters) or something singular like Sharp, Endurance, or maybe Vengeance against some kind of enemies to feel more their elite status. (I suggest really strong effects, because they are paragonable to Vengeance). Maybe something that add more tactical skills like SSD and SSA that make the enemy feels them like vipers.

 

 

Returning to Lords of Izu theme...

Leadership is a very good effect, on a “tank” like Satoshi feels like a commander on his troops – even when hi troops are guys like Masunagi.

Ignoring Tough on Poison should be normal, and not themed to me.

The 2 BoO points to get some venom are a little wasted, you really don’t rely on a venom strategy in this list.

 

To me, i would preserve the Leadership effect; i would give some “military” effects like having more pass tokens, and to feel better the poison theme I would allow a 0 cost for Poisoned Blades for example. So you play a list with 3 free poisoned blades that feels like Ito, great leadership, a good strategy option and - if there are modifier for Temple Bushi – light armoured elite troops as well. Feels more like an organized force to me, than having a the little poison effect.

 

 

 

 

Finally, something I don’t get is the damage: Mizuki or Jirou has a staff that gives them +0 damage, and Naoko has +0 dmg by using her “scary hands”. Even the sharp Katana on Kaihime, Temple Bushi, Saburo, the spear of Haruki has +0 damage. I think that Katanas would be the “normal” weapon and +0 dmg is ok, but a Staff should do less damage like -1, and Akimoto Drum Sticks -2 (killing people with Drum Sticks, really?). If Akimoto would fight, I think he has to be able to bite her opponents, he is a deadly giant Cobra after all.

 

 

 

 

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To be honest, I'd like to see 'Summoned' as a trait, to remove rice cost/model count from zone consideration instead of it being tied to insignificant as Wrath, Envy etc. don't have a rice cost and with all the summoned models Cult can be overly strong on zonal play. This could then be used to indicate if a Kami is lesser or greater or if a 1rice swarm type model should count for model numbers in zones (rat swarms for example that could have been summoned). The change to insignificant makes Wraith a huge points disadvantage for a lot of scenarios in addition to his not being able to interact with objectives. Feels a little harsh considering his cost. This could then be applied to basic Bakemono that can be summoned to balance them out a bit and force SW players to commit some of the more valuable Bakemono instead of just summoning 4-5 rc and another model to count straight into a zone just before scoring is decided.
This could then also be used instead of animal as we would probably consider most of the animal type models as summoned to fight (just not in the magical sense necessarily). This way models that can't interact with any scenario types (mostly cheaper models) can be summoned & insignificant and that way you can choose to have some models capable of interacting with zones but not scenario objectives or vice versa.

Axiam

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The Insignificant change hasn't worked.  It will be reversed.
Wraith looks to be losing the trait regardless.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Ret-TheD
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Oh darn. And here I was happily explaining to my local players how much sense it makes that the Silvermoon Pit Dogs or the 1 rice Wakasu Akuma can no longer control zones.

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Yeah, sorry.  It made sense to me too but it breaks more than it fixes.

 

We can look at issues when we do the Risen Sun Tournament pack though.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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How does kata interact with something like curse faith? 

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Very well.
The rolled numbers are swapped for dice of value 1.  Those dice then count as 1s for the test rather than being removed.

 

Example:  Misao uses Curse Fate on Kenko and gets 3 dice rolling 3,4,6.
In a melee exchange later, Kenko rolls 6,5,4,3 in attack.  
Curse Fate makes this 5,1,1,1 which gives Kenko a total result of 8 because of Kata.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Troll
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In regards to the Risen Sun tournament pack. Would it be possible for players to get a chance to review the tournament pack? The victory conditions of missions can affect the relative worth of models in the game. For example master Akari is worth his weight in gold as a vim or for scoring points deep in enemy territory but relatively worthless if he is required to kill enemy models.

There are many models in the game whose relative values are dependent on which mission is being played. Knowing how many missions there are and what the victory conditions are to be for each mission would give players some useful information to consider when evaluating the relative merits of any particular profile in Risen sun.

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Yes...  but I have to concentrate on getting the core rules and profiles done.

The Scenarios will have all the same elements, Zones, Objectives, 3 across the middle and 6 in a circle and VIMs.

VIMs will likely always be mixed with something else as pure VIM missions have been problematic.

Many scenarios will allow for edge OR corner deployment at TOs choice.  This gives 2 scenarios in 1 as corner deployment Idols for example is totally different to edge deployment Idols.

Fewer scenarios will score for the first time on turn 2.  These dramatically favour fast factions and, while it is not bad to have some of these, it need not be most.  Starting scoring in turns 3 or 4 on some scenarios alters play a lot (Though so far really favours Ito melee warbands which we'll have to keep looking at).

 

Have a look at these which I tested at last year's Geand Masters event:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gz1j2jm5ynzpqhv/Expo%20Scenarios.pdf?dl=0

Note the first three will be optional edge or corner deployment.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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Osatsu looks like fun. Tricky tho, do you dare to turn that middle idol? :) 

I think it will be for the best having vim in combination with other means of winning the game, i just think it will be better that way, good call.

Ret-TheD
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Did a quick read through of 1.25. 

Page 12. Terrain cards should probably also have a size like all other terrain?

Page 31. Immobilised gives -1 dice pool. Should be Held.

Page 47. Entangling refers to ImmobiliZed.

In general. Immobilised models should be easier to hit with ranged attacks.

Page 50. Leadership should probable be reworded to not refer to the highest die in the same way as Brutal and Parry... adds x to the final result of Fear test. 

 

BakemonoPrime
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(Sorry, if the following has already been mentioned)

Savage Wave:

  • Consume Soul on Bobata has the [no meele] restriction while all other Onis don't have that restriction (i assume this is a typo. otherwise it would be very confusing)

 

I like the new rules so far. Playing the SW feels more predictable (less random). yes

BakemonoPrime
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Rules:

  • Believer [Descriptor](X/Y”): Friendly [Descriptor] models within Y" of this model reduce the
    cost of their Ki Feats by X. X cannot be less than 0.

    You probably meant: The resulting cost cannot be less than 0.
     

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Where do we currently stand on Temple models with adept for tournaments, are we saying the rule is removed still or should we be playing to current profiles for Temple version 3 cards?

Thanks!

Axiam

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The trait is gone but you’ll have to wait for the cards for any RC changes. 

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

RavenwolfXIII
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Hi; Me and my friends just found this game, and we were excited to try it out! With the new rules coming, we figured it was a great time... however, after learning the 2nd edition rules, we decided to check over the Risen Sun rules, and... were very disappointed. There are some big issues we found. 

Firstly, LoS rules. The new rules say LoS can be drawn from any point on the model to any point on the target. This causes a lot of incredibly weird and game-breaking issues. 

My first example: https://imgur.com/a/WTqU4VP

Blue can draw LoS to Red, around the interviening terrain, and thus can make a ranged attack against Red, and Red cannot claim cover, as the target model is not within 1" of the terrain.

My second example, (assume none of the models are within ZoC; paint is not very good at scaling): https://imgur.com/a/oXlFfoG

Red can target Blue with a ranged attack, as the LoS line can pass through the tiniest gaps between models, and Blue also cannot claim cover, as only terrain, not models, grant cover. There is also no risk of hitting the interviening models, even if they are friendly.

Both of those issues are solved by always drawing LoS from the center of the model to any point on the target. This is exactly the kind of jank tournament players will take advantage of; and create a very negative play experiance for any players newer to the game.

 

Secondly, removing the no-premesuring rule for casual play is great! Pretty much every major miniatures game nowadays has added premeasuring, for good reason. Not allowing premeasuring gives a sharp advantage to those who have experiance in judging distances, and artificially creates a much larger skill gap for those who have little to no experiance, while also giving a major disadvantage to anyone with sensory perception issues who cannot properly judge distances or depth very well. (Such as myself.) This goes without saying that to continue to include no-premeasuring rules in competative play is an incredibly bad idea.  

 

I hope these issues get addressed, as I do not believe me and my friends will be able to continue playing the game should these problems persist in Risen Sun.

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I had to reread the rule, and you're right, I never noticed the within 1" of cover piece.  That makes ranged way more powerful.  Cover was fine before, why change it? If it errs on the side of providing cover I'm super cool with that, this should be a melee focused game.

RavenwolfXIII
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The problem really comes from the fact that you can draw LoS from any point of the model. If I stick 1mm of the base out behind a corner, I can shoot from that 1mm. 

Sgnappa
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To answer RavenWolf, I have different perspective on that.

1) LOS

Being at 1" distance from an element implies that you are deliberately search for cover, and not benefit from cover on everything.

Both of your examples are good, and are limit situations that can effectively occurs. But if you measure the LOS from the center of the model, other situations can occur: I can claim LOS measuring from the centre, and you can claim I have not LOS because you argue center is 1mm on the right.

The rule as it is now is not perfect, but to me gets the job done: is more difficult to "center" the LOS instead of measuring from any point.

 

To me, ti would be better like this:

- To have LOS, measure from any point from the model's volume to any point to target's model.

- To have Cover, you have to be near the obstacle: supposing the models are constantly moving, I supposed the whole turn is something that happens in a few seconds of real time: this implies that your model don't benefit from cover if it is far from protection, since the shooter attacks while the targets struggle to reach cover. I would give Cover to a target if the Scenery is nearer to him, but every rule - unfortunately - create issues to me.

- The only thing I would change, is the benefit of Cover with other models. Supposing that anyone is moving, targeting a moving target while others stumble into trajectory should give him cover as well. This could be done by benefit from Cover only if a equal/greater size model covers in some way a part of the volume target. This would create the opposite issue as well, your opponent can claim Cover since a model convers 1mm of LOS.

 

2) Pre-Measuring

I'm not against pre-measuring. The advantage to more experienced players is weaker, but sometimes you cannot do your move due to an unlucky roll (fear, for example). Pre-measuring resolve some issues when a player claim a distance where other don't, so in a casual game it would result in a more balanced battle between a beginner and a veteran. The experienced player could put a model in a better distance for the next activation as well, so he have anyway a little advantage.

Games where the moving distance is randomly generated (think about the 40K charge) allows the players to agree if the move is legal before any die is rolled - giving them a more relaxed gaming experience; in a game like Bushido I agree with you: in a competitive game distance should not be pre-measured.

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@ Ravenwolf - while I can see what you're saying, I have to agree with Sgnappa on your first example. Combat is not static. The models may move in straight lines and stop at precise measurements, but actual demon monsters and giant snakes wouldn't be static like that...they move around. I totally agree with Sgnappa that being within 1" of terrain indicates that a model is actively seeking cover. It never made sense to me that a model could be standing in the middle of a field, 50' away from a tree that is 5' from a shooter and somehow get cover from that tree....no, the shooter leans out and takes a shot.

Your second example you mention is something 'jank tournament players will use'. And while I could see that happening, I believe the likelihood is far out there. What would be the purpose? Are you trying to protect your own shooter from reprisal by blocking him with your own advancing troops? That doesn't work...if you can see them, they can see you. Is it a sneaky shot between 2 defenders that are trying to screen a more fragile target? Well....then they should be screening better. The reason models don't provide cover is again...that combat isn't static. It is assumed that the shooter will fire when there is a gap during movement....or that he calls out to his friends to duck....most of these models represent trained warriors so they would have experience working together and blocking archers with more melee oriented troops is a tactic historically used by fighting forces the world over.

Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.

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While we're trying to model reality, its never perfect and literally every rule will seem wrong somehow to somebody.  For LoS I think the first example is fine, you can just see the person round the wall.
In the second example again theres a gap to see through, I'd say get 5 people to line up.  Even in a football wall the kicker can SEE the goalie.

also:
https://imgur.com/a/4rEkuPi
You can do exactly this with centre measured LoS.

Finally, centre of base is a very wooley rule.  Its not precise as the centre is not marked.
I prefer to use more precise rules wherever possible.

Someone mentioned model Volumes too.  This is also very wooley and imprecise, it is much better represented as a 2D problem and use model and terrain sizes to do away with (Or rather more accurately model) LoS from volumes entirely.

The No-Premeasuring option for tournament play is exactly that.  Its just an OPTION.  Its not that tournaments will disallow pre-measuring, just IF a TO wants to say "Hey, we want to do something different, how about we try this?" then they can.
We don't expect huge take up on this as even the players who like no-premeasuring are changing their minds a lot (Not everyone I know, no need to say there is a sizable no-premeasuring group out there).

The new tournament pack will have lots of options to try to allow for local TOs to make events exactly how their players like it and also provide more ideas for new TOs.

Thanks for the feedback, I hope this explains why we came to this decision on changes to LoS rules.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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The one inch to cover rule is very similar to infinity where you have to be touching cover to benefit from it. This is a relatively small rule change that can have a significant impact on the balance between ranged and melee. With the rule written as is, I can already predict the moaning I’m going to get when Minuro buffed by Katsumoto murders key units that aren’t hugging cover. 

We need to take a step back and fundamentally determine where the balance of power should be between ranged and melee. This change will shift that balance in the new edition. Maybe it’ll lead to more terrain heavy boards, that’s another aspect to consider as well.

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That’s what we’ve been doing for the past year;) 

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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Fair point!

Ret-Aenion
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Also keep in mind that while you now need to be within 1" of the cover to qualify, it's a lot harder for your opponent to bypass it.
In New Dawn an attacker needed to be able to see the target's full base from any point of its own base to bypass cover.
In Risen Sun it's the other way around, if a line from any point of an attacker's base passes through cover to reach the target's base, the target is in cover. I've found it's easier to actually be in cover now than in the past.

Ret-Aenion
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And don't forget that an intervening model can still jump in front of the shot.

Sora9785
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I have a question regarding Enhancement and summoning new models.

 

If I give an Ijimyos Mask one Risen and i am playing the Death and Decay Theme does every other Risen (when non Soulles models die one Risen appears) get the Mask also?

Sora9785
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I have found (what I think it is a mistake) a weird rule interaction

If a model with rise (Kairai for example) is already prone and an enemy starts to hack on the prone model. What happens if the model put everything in attack and gets killed. The model makes a rise test and succeed it, does the ALREADY prone model gets to make the attack?

 

On Page 31 :
"10b) If the Defender was successful apply any Special Defences used by the Defender. If this results in either model being removed from the table, the defender no longer being in BtB with the Attacker or becoming Prone skip to Step 14 otherwise move to Step 13."

The model is prone and dont become prone so the attack goes through?

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Prone: If a model is Prone it suffers a -1 Melee Pool penalty and does not block LoS.
Enemy models may ignore it's ZoC and may choose not to be considered in BtB with them when declaring or performing their actions, meaning the action choice is not restricted by being in BtB with the Prone model.
Prone models  are always the Attacker second in Melee Exchanges and may not use Special Abilities or benefit from traits or effects that affect Initiative.
The only action a Prone model may declare is Stand Up.
If a Prone model initiates a Melee Exchange through taking a Stand Up action it suffers -1 MS modifier for that Melee Exchange but initiative is not affected.
A prone model cannot gain Prone Markers.

 

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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