Sun Rised on the Ito?

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
Sgnappa
Offline
Joined: 27/11/2017
Sun Rised on the Ito?

Hi guys, someone has tried Rising Sun as well? 

What do you think about our model?

There is some model that change your lists, or something you find unuseful?

Ret-Fleafa's picture
Ret-Fleafa
Offline
Joined: 24/05/2013

I'm really enjoying them. Movement is great. Stil punchy, but no longer tanky, so you need to be sensible with them. A highlight has been Akimoto and Sakura teaming-up to put 7 Wounds on Arata through Poison in a single End Phase (3xPosion2, 4xPoison1). Still digging through options.

Sgnappa
Offline
Joined: 27/11/2017

While some profiles remains the same in terms of gameplay, i found some others becomes something to think about.

Assuming that almost everyone has +1 Mov and -1 Wounds, our clan becomes real quick but fragile, and fits perfectly the “hit and run” tactic more like a biting snake.

 

1) Itsunagi Ito

He costs a lot. Someone said he’s a glass cannon, but I disagree: everyone have hard time to kill him. With Ranged Defence/2 is really hard to damage with ranged weapons: he lost Mov boost but he move 5 now, so it’s easier to hide him.

 

He lost a little Ki resistance, so I think it’s his weak spot: “weak” because it’s a 25 Rice killer, not because it’s easy to get him with Ki Feats; he rolls 2d6+1 against enemy Ki tests, rolling against 3 Ki (or 2+1) models would seems fair, but it’s not because he has a very little advantage in average result, but they wins for having more dices or being active. In the New Dawn this guy could protect himself by choosing to roll 3d6+1 for Ki test, so I think you should pay attention to this.

 

But it’s with the new Split Attack and Kurouma Koryu that he shines: rolling 4d6+1 in a single strike by using Feint means that often your opponent don’t attack you. And combining his skills, if someone it’s fool enough to make you benefit from Split Attack, this means a 3d6+1 Combo Attack with Prowess… and maybe Feint as well.

 

I ALWAYS use him with the Vial of Raijin, to fight at his max power he needs tons of Ki but it’s so good that you charge him only if he fight strong guys; with Vial he can go and kill where he want to, I always target the weakest enemy to recover the flaw of recruiting him, since he costs really tons of Rice without give any bonus to his allies. So, get ASAP a fair model count and killing someone means that he worth his cost.

 

2) Ayako Ito

Ayako is now a really huge support, even that I don’t know if she worts his price.

3 Ki and Virtue is the first point of support, to me the best Virtue is Sixth Sense that allow you to get Camo enemies without effort or Lighting Reflexes sometimes.

 

I never use her so much (since I often play against Yurei), but I found her feats… meh.

Psychic Drain is always good, but spending a 22 Rice model activation only to get some Ki always doesn’t worth the effort to me.

Death Sentence costs a lot and you have to sentence the right guy at the right time, but it’s only 8” so it seems a little situational to me… being at 8” from an enemy with Ayako is not very good.

Best thing is Hypnogaze, for a mere 2 Ki making someone losing an activation and being stunned is great; in a Blessed list she could drop hypnogaze 2 times per turn until turn 3, giving some real advantage to your list. But hey, she is 22 PA, for merely 19 You have Mizuki with Hypnogaze as well (that she can use as Ayako) or the better Obey – dropping a control Token means that you gets 2 Activation advantage.

 

3) Satoshi

while he lost some of his tatical ability, Satoshi is great especially in a lords of Izu. First, he gets Leadership +2 so you don’t have to struggle so much against fear; second, i Always gives him the Teachings – a tanky model that allow you to win the tactical roll is great! He lacks of offensive power, but in a scenario where he was the VIM, by using push defence (and he’s a great defender) for escaping from trouble makes me won the game.

 

I often use him with Masunagi for getting a heavy (and relatively cheap) hitter, equipped with Itsu’s Gambit to make him a real killer.

 

4) Sakura & Satsuki

I really like them in couple. A Jade Mamba could protect them as well, the obious combo is to Drain some Ki, drop tons of Venom and accelerate it; I never be able to do it, instead the girls are a real good tool: sometimes I launch Sakura in Melee with tons of Ki – and so tons of Dices – something that my opponent don’t expect. The girl is squishy, but with 4 Dices she can be an average enemy for some infantry.

And often, I put Teachings on Satsuki – she’s a 100% support, so I put on the edge.

I don’t have Kyou yet, but I think one of the girls, him and a bodyguard could be quite annoying for the enemies.

 

5) Jade Mamba Guard

now thate she fits every theme, and she has Bodyguard, Armour and Steadfast become often an inclusion for me. She is not neither strong in terms of Ki or combat, but sometimes she has surprised me for being so tough in a fargile army; and my opponent always have difficulties to deal with my samurai or shisai where the girl is around. Often bodyguard determina more a mental effect instead being a real use.

 

About Cards… to me, Itsu’s Gambit is quite a must have. Put it on Kenzo, Masunagi, even Satoshi make everyone a fearsome opponent. But Teaching of Yashushi is something that i played a lot lately: getting the initiative in a quick and fragile clan, allow you to decide the flow of battle and often this is vital to get the victory.

 

 

 

 

 

What about you?

 

kotep's picture
kotep
Offline
Joined: 23/01/2015

I don't see a lot of love for Ito in the new edition. 

Unfortunately what I see is a swing too far to the wrong direction. Did they need a tweak, sure. Did it need to go as far as it did, no. At least in my opinion it didn't. In general I'd say the loss of wounds across the board was bad enough, but there are models that really got neutered. 

For example in a game this afternoon, I used Kenzo (a personal fav), and he's quite different now. 

Loss of:

  • bravery
  • light footed
  • steady
  • first strike
  • 2 wounds
  • 3 Ki to boost MS (used to be 2)

Was there any gain for this model? If there is I don't think I see it with just the addition of grapple(0) for him. OUCH. 

I fear for my Ito warband. I play against Savage Wave a lot, and they got a nice boost. I see trouble ahead...

Ret-Aenion
Offline
Joined: 02/06/2018

He still has First Strike, it's just called Reach. Alsof he costs quite a bit less than in New Dawn.
In my experience Kenzo still performs perfectly fine, he's just no longer unkillable like he was previously. He is lethal on attack and likely to sidestep away on defense, just don't expect him to stay in btb with more than one model.

Ito are positively lethal in Risen Sun

GCT Master Enos's picture
GCT Master Enos
Offline
Joined: 05/10/2012

Unfortunately what I see is a swing too far to the wrong direction. Did they need a tweak, sure. Did it need to go as far as it did, no. 

Ito did get changed the most probably and  it was a worworry if I'm honest .

Did we go too far and make them overpowered?  Playtesting said not but I had an eye on them the whole testing period and while they certainly got a boost I think they are right where we want them.

If they prove to be too good after a while, there are still things we can do to tone them down so don't worry.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Sgnappa
Offline
Joined: 27/11/2017

I like the changes of the faction, giving them less terrain control, more speed and being a little fragile. Kenzo is toned down but temple bushi and JMG that I often use are toned up to me; so the whole faction seems better balanced.

 

Due to lack of wounds they become a little more difficult to use, but they becomes faster that allows you to get the initiative often in a melee.

 

About Kenzo, don't understimate him: now has more flaws - and it's good, it was almost an auto-include - but in the other way he has more tricks under his sleeves:

- He can now boost MOV. Get a Vial of Raijin's Breath and threat the whole table.

- SSD allows you go in the backside of your opponent. Good to surprise him or simply go over his frontlines.

- activing Grapple (1). You can grapple your enemy for future attacks or simply to stop him. Once you held someone, he should go away asap since he  gets tons of debuff!

- activing Grapple as a bluff (2): maybe your opponent fear to be immobilized and you can use this as advantage to attack him and use SSD with less risks.

- activing Grapple as a bluff (3): you can reduce attack dices against you if your opponent fears to be helded, and strike him with a Powerful Attack at +4 dmg, with 3 Dices and MP as well.

 

Remember if you can get the Initiative and result in a Grapple attack, your opponent lose an activation, after that he goes Defensive, with less MS and must Disengage. This would result in another activation loss, but not only that: even if Kenzo if Exausthed against a 3 dice model, he is sure to attack with 3 dices without risking a counterstrike!

 

 

 

Another thing I see in Rising Sun, is that the cards could give advantages to a model. So, think about Kenzo with one of them:

- Itsunagi's Gambit: When you go full attack with a Powerful Strike you also get Brutal: 3 MP Dices, Feint, +4 Damage and +1 on result (often a wound).

- Vial of Raijin's Breath: to me the most powerful item accessible to the Ito, Kenzo at MV 7 and Cloudwalk could reach almost everything.

- Beneath the Skin: problems with Fear? No more, when you can get Fear/6 and Terror.

kotep's picture
kotep
Offline
Joined: 23/01/2015

Hearing more feedback on my beloved faction makes me worry less. I guess I'm just having a knee jerk reaction to the changes and will clearly have to play more games to fully judge how all these changes will effect my gameplay with Ito. 

Sgnappa
Offline
Joined: 27/11/2017

@Kotep

Give some chances to JMB and Takeji. Takeji was a little nerfed but always a solid choice, but JMG can better protect your valuable models due to built-in bodyguard now, and read how steadfast works: if you want to get someone in melee, thanks to the new steadfast you can get him no matter how fearsome he is.

Another thing that you would consider, is that both JMG (so Takeji) and Temple Bushi can now be included in all themes, so in a Blessed with Kenzo and some Shisai a JMG gives you opportunities. Temple Bushi are not very strong, they lose Armor but gets Poison and Vengeance making them more aggressive, and the preserve their Bravery so in a Editione where fear is a little bit stronger this could make some difference.

And try Satoshi in a Lords of Izu list, you could find some suprises ;-)

 

Ret-Stigandr
Offline
Joined: 01/05/2015

I couldn’t disagree more with the title of this topic.
In my opinion the sun has set over the lands of the Ito.

I’ve been playing Ito Blessed theme a couple of years and with the New Dawn rules, all games were pretty balanced. I won some games and I lost some games.  But all games were fun and the fortunes of war swayed during those games between both opponents.

For me, Risen Sun sucked the fun out of my games with my Blessed Ito.  I lose 9 in 10 games and most games are even over in round 2 or 3.
I’ve tried different combinations, 1 shisai, 2, 3, … doesn’t make a difference.  I get overwhelmed in round 2 and in round 3 shisai start to die.  There is no way to hold a line and protect the squishy casters.

My regular opponents bring warbands to the table with mostly ki 2 models.  With one shisai, you lack the power to cast a successful spell.  It’s mostly an opposed ki test and with 2 ki versus 2 ki, it’s just better to throw my ki away.  If I bring more shisai to benefit from the willpower bonus, I lack fighters to hold the line.

I loved taking Kaihime into my warbands as she was a serious threat.  But when I see my opponents’ warbands, she became one of the lesser ranged attackers of the game.  She always has to move herself to get a clear shot as placing or extra walk actions like “move it” are not for Ito. This means I have to roll at least a 5 on short range to hit and I can only score a maximum success level 3 hit on the target. Her bow lost the +1 damage  and has only a potential pierce (1). I’ve been unable to let her deliver the poison  Ito depend on.
I faced the blood brothers in my last game, which has become my final game with the Cursed Ito.  Baishi was able to give 2 of those brothers a bow with a +1 damage that doesn’t give reload markers.  Ying-Jians Saihai feat saihai made them walk first before they activated and with rivalry both brothers could shoot before I could do anything. Without the walking penalty they were able to kill Taisei with one shot and Akimoto lost all but 1 wound.  Then Baishi ordered the brothers so they still have an activation and they would be able to do this again their next activation.

Most games I played with Ito in Risen Sun ended in round 2 or 3 as it took my opponent only until then to destroy my warband.  In my opinion, Risen Sun has forsaken the Ito clan, and I have decided to do the same.

 

GCT Master Enos's picture
GCT Master Enos
Offline
Joined: 05/10/2012

There is no way to hold a line

Don't form a line.
 

I will watch this thread as Ito have had more models on the overpowered watchlist than any other faction and The Blessed theme also gets a lot of discussion about poison 3 being too much.  Its good to hear another side but with the faction rampaging over the opposition regularly...  I can't see a huge change soon.

I'm sure people can offer some advice on how to use the list though.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Ret-Aenion
Offline
Joined: 02/06/2018

I'll try to add in my 2 cents as a member of Ret-Stigandr's group. Although I haven't played against his Ito often anymore.

I've seen a curious evolution in our group with Shisai. In New Dawn games were tense. Hebi were very strong, too strong in some cases, Shisai were ok, except against Minimoto who suffers from too many Ki 1 models with poor defenses.

During beta Ito games between Ito and Minimoto ended with the Minimoto tabled. Ayako had Ki 3 and most Minimoto had Ki 1 with Resistance 1.
Games against KKZ were tense, but leaned towards KKZ if I could get someone (Bikou) near Ayako, she could murder 2 Shisai in 1 round if I got lucky.

Close to the release of Risen Ayako went from Ki 3 to Ki 2, which was sensible as she was an unstoppable caster in a Triad and with the double Ki from The Blessed.
At the same time Minimoto got their Resistance 2.

Since then it appears Ito struggle unless they bring Yatsumata. Especially lists built around Ayako, as most of us love that model. She is really good and brings a lot to a warband but at Ki 2, she struggles to get her feats to stick on another Ki2 model unless you bring another Shisai or two which becomes costly at 20 Rice plus

I think that partially it's because of our meta with a very good Jung player who enjoys the Blood Brothers, a Bakemono player who loves his Darkness and a Prefecture player who loves Blood of the Dragon, and myself with Minimoto, Temple and KKZ.

Looking at those opponents we have a lot of things that will make a caster with Ki 2 struggle. Bringing Ayako with another Shisai weakens your survivability as you struggle to keep models between her and the enemy. Kyou pretty much gets ignored or shot in our meta, no one voluntarily enters BtB with him.

If I look at the complaints about Ito on Facebook they are mostly about Yatsumata (who may be a tad undercosted?) and possibly from less experienced players?

I tried my hands at Ito once so far and I love their playstyle but I can also see where The Blessed struggle.
And don't even think of playing Shisai against a Kairai list...

Ret-Stigandr
Offline
Joined: 01/05/2015

I did experiment a lot with different lists and I had asked advice from other players. Some say they can make it work, but when I tried to use their advice, the outcome was still the same. Maybe it's as ret-Aenion says and it's mostly because of my regular opponents.

But the frustration is still there and I'm convinced that they don't work as they should work.

Sgnappa
Offline
Joined: 27/11/2017
I opened this thread almost 1 year ago, when we are playtesting Rising Sun as well. I play almost against Tengu and Yurei; so my toughts aren't on the whole math-ups, and I'm concentrating on Lords of Izu since I don't have Kyou, Kaihime or Mizuki as well. I find Ayako at 3 Ki is absolutely powerful, but not too strong: she don't have devastating feats like Ikyrio's Look into the Void or Mizuki's Obey, for 20+ Rice model I don't found that she becomes autoinclude: but maybe against KKZ or Minimoto, she could be devastating anyway. I suppose that give her Spirit(1) could be a good trait, instead of three Ki. Unfortunately, to be really effective she needs another Shisai near, and I think that could be only Kyou since having 2 expensive but squishy models to do stuff that are far from decisive is something you don't want. I see that Kaihime is often (when not always) included in a Blessed list, deliver poison/3 arrows could be devastating. But if you are playing against kind of healers,she becomes less decisive. Against Tengu that have often Spirit and Buzenbo, they could overcome your better weapons (feats, mobility and ranged attacks). I'm frustrated too by playing my Lords of Izu: sometimes I won, but more often at turn 2/3 game is over. My models MUST fight to overcome Tengu or Yurei, even if you play a perfect game a couple of bad rolls could ruin the match. When you lose your first 10+ Rice model and cannot take down an enemy one, you have almost lose. Here and on Facebook I often struggle to get how others playto understand if is my way too play that is too aggressive, and mybe change it, but the only things I get is that you should play Yatsumata (uncontrollable and fearless fast moving killer), Kaihime in the Blessed, and/or Masunagi as killer. Now I'm wondering to expand my army not on Ito's blessed models but more on Ronin: Ito are opportunist, so play some powerful Ronins could give me the opportuinity to have an Orderer for Battle list that could be more versatile against my abitual opponents, by shifting a couple of models. Tenchi against Kirai, Golden Guards are great, and the Princess with her bow (don't remember her name) is something also threatening. To me, neither The Blessed or Lords of Izu gives great advantages against their limits, without really improving their skills so bad that you want to use them. But I realize that Jade Mamba Guards and Chyio are great models too, with their great versatility and average combat skills, could really shine sometimes. GIve them a chance. I just discovered that Akimoto is Fearless at first activation: this implies you can engage fearsome models with ease with him (think about Ikyrio for example) and you want to get him dead as soon as possibile by disrupting your enemy formation. He deserves another chance, too.
Sgnappa
Offline
Joined: 27/11/2017
I don't get why my comments aren't formatted as I write them... sorry
Ret-Fleafa's picture
Ret-Fleafa
Offline
Joined: 24/05/2013

Old forums are old :(

Jockjay
Offline
Joined: 24/06/2018

Hi guys,

Also looking at blessed, I have the old starter, new 2 player starter and yatsumata and akiyo. And was looking to expand, I have used said models quite extensively and came here to find a way to make them work, and tbf the above posts just confirmed my misgivings about the theme: 2 ki is not enough, especially for Akiyo. I usually take Sakura with Ayako, to pump her full of Ki, with akimoto as a possible fear causing line backer on the cheap.

I'm in no way an expert, but I don't see the point to effect ratio paying off for Ayako. If i sink 20+ rice into a fighter, I expect MS4 probably, and would like to think most cheaper fighters are 1 MS less (not all cases obviously) but with Ayako, It feels like the equivalent of paying for mitsunagi with MS 3, as in she doesn't feel like shes really that good at doing the thing you bought her to do? I can see taht her powers are solid, and could ruin a game if she tees off and gets those passes, but in most of my games recently, she just cannot get anything off, regardless of nearby sakura. it seems a lot of enemies are ki 2 mainly now, or have resistance etc, to the point i may as well just load up on fighters and turn the game into a fight fest, as I am fairly certain i can get that rolling without the intense ki spending and pre planning it takes just to TRY to get one of her powers off.

to that end I'm probably gonna try a fighty blessed, as I don't see Shisai gaining any purchase, it could just be my meta (Minimoto, ryu, tengu and yurei) but I hate the idea that faction A is utterly useless against faction B 100% of the time.

Anyone go tips on fighty blessed? 'Im thinking kenzo (18), naoko (14), kaihime (15), yatsumata (25), yuui (13), saburo(13) with 2 points left for Vial of raijin breath?

Absolutely zero finesse lol.

kotep's picture
kotep
Offline
Joined: 23/01/2015

Ok, I've played multiple games now against Prefecture and Savage Wave... and I think that Ito got tweaked a bit too much on the wrong direction. That or the 2 previously mentioned factions got boosted a little too much (mostly Prefecture). Honestly, I hate to complain... But it's frustrating.

Sora9785
Offline
Joined: 10/09/2018

When I play against SW with my Ito, I do tend to win most of the time. 
Bakemono are easy fodder, you just have to whittle them down (and try to go for objectives before them). Onis are a little bit harder but you outnumber them most of the time. When you have special attack or defenses Onis are no real problem because sidestep defense and Combo attack against them are good.

I have to say that I dont have the Shisais (only the 2 from the starters) and rarely take Kinu

Meavar's picture
Meavar
Offline
Joined: 12/12/2013

I did have some success with the shisai but I agree it depends a bit on the faction. I only played them in 100pt since they need some cheaper support. But they are difficult to play but with 2 dice and a +2 they very often get their kids feats off even against 2ki models (don't see much 1 ki) and against the cult they just fail. With a kirai list most have 3 ki or soulless there are few targets for the close to 50 points spend on those shisai.

Meavar

announcement