control and selfdestruct

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Meavar's picture
Meavar
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Joined: 12/12/2013
control and selfdestruct

Hi everyone,

I am still waiting for my cards thus the first point might be fixed already.
1) the dark secret cards of ito and trade sindicate are different, with the trade sindicate allowing more, and the ito working on soulless models. 

Then the actual questions:

2) How much control do you have over a controlled model. Can it kill itself?
Example A:  I use dark secrets to control an Kami of the evening flame at the end of the turn. Next turn starts and it is under my control, can I make the kami explode, remove the model and give nearby models fire markers, ar use another method of killing myself? (Master Enos using his gokusatsu attack, Yurei using cultist, models with self-sacrifice etc). 
It is under my control "A Controlled model switches Warbands for a number of actions dependent on the number of Control Markers it has."
But I cannot spend tokens, so it feels wrong to "spend" the model instead, even if it isn't a token I am spending. 
"Whilst Controlled the Controlling player may declare any action the model would normally be able to perform but may not spend Tokens or remove its Tokens."

3) Abilities that do not cost an action, for instance can a controlled Tra peng give a stun token at the beginning of the turn?


4) And since tokens may not be removed, what happens with fire poison etc at the end of the round. Does the damage go and the token stays, or is the model while controlled invurnerable to fire, bleed and poison?

Ret-A_Palmer's picture
Ret-A_Palmer
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Joined: 15/05/2013

2.) Yes.  It is my secret dream to apply Controlled to Master Enos and remove another monk from play using his special attack.  So far, I have not been successful.

3.) Yes.

4.) There's a difference between markers and tokens.  Most states are markers.  Most tokens are things like Ammo.  Controlled models burn/bleed/whatever the same as other models 99% of the time.

Meavar's picture
Meavar
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Joined: 12/12/2013

Ah I did not realise since I thought markers and tokens were sometimes used interchangeable. Then there might be some errors like on the ito theme it speaks about poison tokens.

And how about other tokens like blood of the orochi. If I take over Kaihime with 2 orochi tokens.
Does she keep the tokens and do I get a extra token to put on someone else?
Does she lose the tokens. Even though I can't remove the tokens?
Or does she keep the tokens but I do not gain a new one?
And can the original ito player allocate his blood freely or does he effectively has to allocate some blood of the orochi tokens to keep the blood of the orochi on haikime?

Meavar

Sgnappa
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Joined: 27/11/2017
I miss the fact a Soulless model can be actually controlled... maybe only by this Ito card, but it opens up lot of opportunities, and a couple of questions as well. (1) If I control Kato's Marionette, can I actually make it control an enemy, right? (2) If I use Dark Secrets on a model that have a Ki value of 0/x I actually succeded without rolling dices?
Sora9785
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Joined: 10/09/2018

The first case, I dont really know. Because not the Marionette makes a roll, kato makes The roll. Maybe you simply cannot Do an opp. Ki test since You dont own a Kato. But I would think it is not really possible.

For the second part: no. Every Test will be made with at least 1 die. If it would be an opp. Ki Test the opponent would get an extra die

Sgnappa
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Joined: 27/11/2017
Doing it raw, Kato do the Ki test, when you put control tokens on a model it changes faction and if you put other Control tokens you just remove the first. So it seems quite illogical but almost legal to me ^^
minoa
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Joined: 31/05/2013

Another question regarding "control". Can a player attack his own model that is controlled to exhaust the control marker?

Ret-Fleafa's picture
Ret-Fleafa
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Joined: 24/05/2013

@Minoa: Of course. It isn't his model while it is Controlled.
Kato situation is an edge case. No idea how to resolve that. Probably doesn't happen as Marionette text says he rolls against an Enemy model.

Ret-Fleafa's picture
Ret-Fleafa
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Joined: 24/05/2013

...so, clearly, I do have an idea on how to resolve that...

GCT Master Enos's picture
GCT Master Enos
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Joined: 05/10/2012

Hmmm, this and Capture Soul are the reasons Kato has Immune [Control].  I guess it should have gone on the Marionette too!

 

Its not too bad though, if you Control the Marionette and try to use its ability, the ability requires a Kato and you don't have one.  The Enemy Kato may make an opposed Ki test so probably chooses not to.

So yes it works but it'll never work!

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Panzercake
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Joined: 18/04/2020

Another question about control, I need some enlightment please.


While Controlled, if an effect applies further Control Markers, instead remove one marker for each Control Marker the effect would add.

As I understand this, it means you can never have more than 1 Control Marker.
Even worse, trying to apply a second Marker will remove the first one and you just spend 2 actions for nothing. Is that correct ?


 

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nitkachev
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Joined: 27/05/2019

Panzercake,
>> you can never have more than 1 Control Marker
No, this is not written anywhere. For example, the Marionette can place many markers at once.

Under control, the model changes ownership. Suppose the model owned by player A is under the control of player B. Now it is enemy to A, and now he tries to control it. Instead of setting "controlled by A" markers, he destroys "controlled by B" markers. Simply put, opposing players' control markers cancel each other out.

Panzercake
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Joined: 18/04/2020

@nitkachev,

ah, thanks for the example, the text and combos I've seen are clear now.

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