Eeji & Genji

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Atrus's picture
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Eeji & Genji

Nice concepts. 2 more models for the prefacture!

I hope they will be some kind of brothers and must be included both to gain some bonuses or something like that. Thoughts?

loving that GCT is putting name to all the characters ^^

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At first I thought it was one model with multiple options for poses and weapons, glad to know they are in fact  two models. It would have been real hard to pick which pose I would use if it was only one model as I love both poses.

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More Samurai, just what I like to see!

Also known as Astraeos on Warseer!

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Hayabusa wrote:

At first I thought it was one model with multiple options for poses and weapons, glad to know they are in fact  two models.

Well, it seems you were right on both counts!

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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So they sell independiently? But we will have 4 cards. A bit odd. But its ok. Anyway I can't wait to see them in play.

So twins. .. Interesting :)

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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I suppose there's bits in each blister to build either of them.

Should we order one or two?

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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i suspect they may fit into the 7 to 9 rice bracket each as the samurai currently released are 11,10 and 10 rice. Since there are two cards in the pack then i presume they can be taken independent of each other with a possible benefit when used as a pair?

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Assembled mine (as Genji) and the quality of the sculpt is really good, iirc sculpted by the same person as Takeji so similar to that.  There are 4 arms, 2 heads for customisation with stat cards for each weapon option effectively.

Really like the way the models are going with spare arms/hands for customisation.

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Maybe a little picture? :)

Can't wait to see this.

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Maybe...

 

(I tried a new site to upload from instead of my deviant account so if all goes well there should be a stern looking samurai above... )

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Niiiice!

Also known as Astraeos on Warseer!

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Thanks a lot!

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Looks great, mine is currently in the order I made along with the rulebook.

My hobby blog http://www.grauenacht.com/

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Mine too! Too much curiosity about the Twins... ^^

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i picked up two and both are amazing models but has anyone noticed the scale difference or is it just my wonky eyes?

 

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There is a bit of scale difference between different sculptors, but it's not too far that it is distracting, all still tend to fit in the 32mm scale bracket. 

In the end I just consider that everyone is of different heights/proportions and it would be a bit weird if everyone was the same - just look at Hanso to the rest of the yari ashigaru.  I quite like the idea of the more heroic characters being a bit bigger as it makes them stand out.

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Frenzied Bakemono mode on

Im very dissappointed with Eiji and Genji. They are twins? I expected combined activation, or coordinated attack, one with agressive and the other with deffensive traits or something like that. Maybe cheap and op but that forces you to include both...

Instead, they are simple OP models, unnecesary for the prefacture, unoriginal, without too much sense in terms of playability. Genji almost obsoletes Hiro and laughts to Kenko's face (and whats the explanation for Hiro's "flaming" sword now? :S) .

9 points is too cheap for these guys, seriusly. Kenko and Yumi have 4 dice, but without re-roll, without heavy  armor, and without an ashigaru army behind. Satoshi is 9 rice but has 3 dice, and some cool unique things, is well done, but these twins... I dont see them fit in the game. 

Maybe the cards are wrong, but in our club we are so sad... big disappointment.

Frenzied Bakemono mode off

 

Thoughts? How has been these twins behaviour in the playtesting?

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I didn't see them in playtesting, but 9 rice does seem cheap when compared to models like harionago, Kenko, Waka etc, 4 Melee dice and martial prowess is a bit silly on a 9 rice model, it's arguably themost important statistic in the game, and should be costed higher IMO, regardless of what feats they have (who needs feats when exhausted and outnubered still gices you two dice and a re-roll?)

Having said that- so what if the prefecture have yet more models that are better in melee than everything else in the game? it doesn't really add to their tactics or change their warbands majorly, sure they could take one of these guys over hagane and save 1 point, but it's not that much of a difference is it? eventually when other warbands start getting decent Melee Skill it may become a bit more balanced, but for now let the Prefecture have their killamatrons, we still get zombies, ratmen, wraiths, bakemono and Oni, even if none of them can fight very well;)

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@Artrus: I was disapointed to, when I saw that tey're is no synergy between them. Really disapointed. I like original, fluff  model.

Is that op? I don't think so. Hiro isn't obselete. Unblockable strike is way better than feint (like way way better ^^").  If your opponent has 3 dice in defence, remove the best is a bonus in one SL, and can be more... I'll compute that for you :)

Leadership can change everything against the fear test : without your cheep ashigaru, the pref is nothing. And all of this ashigarus have 1 ki...

About comparing to other factions, it's hard to tell. I'd like to have your wind kami :)

The only thing that you could argue about is "critical strike(0)" which is enough random for not counting it into your game plan, but can be devastating 17% of the time...

 

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Joueur 1156 wrote:

@Artrus: I was disapointed to, when I saw that tey're is no synergy between them. Really disapointed. I like original, fluff  model.

Yes :(

Joueur 1156 wrote:

Is that op? I don't think so. Hiro isn't obselete. Unblockable strike is way better than feint (like way way better ^^").  If your opponent has 3 dice in defence, remove the best is a bonus in one SL, and can be more... I'll compute that for you :)

Leadership can change everything against the fear test : without your cheep ashigaru, the pref is nothing. And all of this ashigarus have 1 ki...

I like how Greeny called them: killamatrons. 9 points for a 4 dice, martial progress armor 3 is very cheap. You are right, Unblockable strike is better, but its Ki cost is higher too.

About Leadership, in the new rulebook if you see the future new cards the example one is Leadership for one Samurai. 1 rice more. So, Genji obsoletes Hiro in almost everything. Also Hiro isnt unique now... :(

Joueur 1156 wrote:

The only thing that you could argue about is "critical strike(0)" which is enough random for not counting it into your game plan, but can be devastating 17% of the time...

Critical Strike in Genji should be at least Critical Strike (1)... and has no sense in the model IMO.

 

Lets see the future. But the twins were a big dissapoinment. I will follow reading the book, that at least is a realy good thing ^^

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Quote:

About Leadership, in the new rulebook if you see the future new cards the example one is Leadership for one Samurai.

I didn't understand that :( (I don't have the rulebook).

After a short computation, unblockable strike against 3 dices give you a 2,88 higher SL, in average. That's huge! Let's round up to 3. If you do a descent damage roll (aka not under 5), it's always +3 damage. That very very efficient.

It's hard to compute with feint, because you can be tempted to try to reduce the SL of your oppenent if you won. But it's surely not 3 dmg!

 

Edit :

I didn't knew that this forum had table, so here's one

 

Average SL difference
nb defence dice 1 2 3
average difference 3.334

2.944

2.889

 

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You can see it in the rulebook for download. The new cards that GCT will add to bushido (I don't know if is a right decision) have a page dedicated in the rules. The example card: 1 rice to give a samurai Leadership trait.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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I missed that part at all. I don't know if it's good idea neather... (But let's not talk about that in that thread :))

Edit : it's not leadership, it's tactician. Hanso already has it. Hiro is saved!

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sorry i have not got mine in the post yet,

i presume the standard faction characteristics are there, slow key accrual, moderate cost for extra dice, week to fear, poison, being out numbered and outmaneuvered?

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I was wrong yes, Its tactician, no leadership ^^ im sorry. Seems that at least Hiro is the only killer samurai with leadership for a while 

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Hey, Joueur! You could say also that at his very first game, Your Genji Oneshoot my Riku, who was not exhausted at all or wathever....

One lucky CS, and he was gone.

I totaly follow Atrus here. 9 rice for ALL this, man that is cheap. You recongnize it yourself : for the first time, you went without Hagane ou Hiro!

Seriously, asides cases where you need fearless, will you pick Hagane anymore?

I agree that CS(0) could be CS(1), not to make it the easy choice you choose all the time...

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By the way, additionnal question: wich brother do you prefere?
For the same rice cost, i have no doubts on my favorit, the other one seems just far from matching him...

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I prefer Eiji because its little different. The only samurai with push deffense, cheap sweep etc Genji is better, but doesn't add something new.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
Welcome to the Oriental-Fantasy-Fusion Game.
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Just to throw my two cent's in, I personally like the brothers (although a unique trait that allowed them to do something when fielded together would have been nice).

The 9-10 rice bracket for Prefecture is typically the Takashi brothers, Ryoko, Hagane and Hanso (and Bikou but I don't rate her among the samurai).  Ryoko is noticably the less combat adept of the samurai as he forfeits fighting ability for time feats (only MS 2 if he takes Crit strike so not going to happen).  Arguably Hagane gives you way more for 1 rice more than either of the brothers and Hanso is an auto include if you are running an ashigaru list (and why wouldn't you ;)).  So they are not likely to see the field unless you are strapped for rice.  As Joueur has said Hiro is not obsolete and is still the boss of the prefecture (for now anyway) as he can hold more ki, leadership, crit strike and unblockable strike for only 2 rice more.  So when it come's down to it Genji is just a mini-Hiro and Eiji adds some proning ability and defensive abilities. 

What I would point out about Critical Strike attack is that you are far more likely to remember when it does happen as to when it doesn't.  In my recent game against Rudders Temple it happened once but we forget the fact that Genji spent around 3-4 consecutive rounds in combat during the game so thats at least 4-5 combats where it didn't happen.  Greeny mentioned a similar analogy with dice, you always remember the picture side of a dice (normally the 6) and thats what you focus on and dont remember the 1's.

I know a lot of people say that Prefecture is undercosted but what I would say is that I don't see this as a balanced game in that my 9 rice model should be the equal of your 9 rice model in combat.  It goes deeper than this and as a faction models in this bracket will alway be better than lower rice models but should add to the faction dynamic.  In prefectures case, they are the military might and so their samurai should be more readily available, but they lack the ki weilding power of the monks, the fear of the oni/cult, poison of the ito and so on.  Military power is their attribute so you would expect them to excel in that area - you dont see prefecture complaining that it can't dish out poison/fire etc and you wouldn't expect it.

I prefer Genji but that's purely to do with the model. smiley

 

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I am not bothered with the stats of the two brothers.
For 9 pt, they are well served, but i can comply with.
My real issue is Critical Strike, as i believe it somehow ruins the game.

Explanation:
CS is random, but gives you no chance.
Against stuff as COunter Att def, you can chosse not to attack.
Against Combo, you can choose to reduce your opp success level by putting everything in def
Or you can choose to put your durable models far away.
Against Push attack ou push def, you can choose your dice distribution to avoid/reduce the damage.

You cant do anything against CS
As low as the SL is, if it works, you die,
As cleaver as your plan can be, you die.
It is the random hand of god. One low def dice on your side, a liw SL on your fow's and in close to 20% of cases, you are gone.

Condidereing the success rate (17%), you can not even say it is random: it is higly likely you will get it in the game, so you can not answer :"yes, but it never happens, and you only remember cases where it did work"
So you can not even consider it is bad luck when you lot your warior: it was highly predicatable.

Riku has to buy CDa, as yumi has, to prevent using it all the time. Why is CS free? It ignors armour, thougness, rise, durable, big life bars....

So what can we do? As temple, i can hardly deny pref player from reaching me, as i aslo habe to prevent minuro from shooting me, bikou from nailing me...
I have few monks, and supports : how to keep CS owners aside?
Playing wave, you could use waves of bake
Playing cult, you could use rats
Playing ito, i dont know
Playing temple, i dont see

My last list was :
Riku
Kitsun
Aiko
Air kami
Peasant
Guardian

The air kami was preventing jin from scoring, kistun was playing with minuro, guardian tring to pancake jin, and riku diying from CS...

So to sum up: i feel Cs is a game killer because:
It is too powerfull
It is too frequent
It is free to use
It is impossible to counter, besides running away from models that have it.

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I see what you are saying about CS, but, like I said before it's just another tool for killing. thats it.

The Prefecture as a faction are horrifically overpowered when it comes to two things- killing people and not dying (why I call them killamatrons), If that is all Bushido was about then yes they are massively cheap for their rice cost. but it isn't, it's about objectives and tactics- will these 9 rice chaps be better against fear? nope, what about spotting Mo-Ises skulking around? nope, What about not getting controlled and CS'ing hanso in the back? nope, in fact they aren't better at anything than anyone else in the faction, what they do is make the prefecture list building a bit more interesting. 

to answer chojin- no they are still susceptible to all those things except outnumbering, the ashigaru wall plus cheap samurai with high MS means they are all but impossible to outnumber these days:)

as long as prefecture releases continue in this way the faction is balanced, we will all only really get the right to moan when they start getting characters with (rise) the ability to summon, Crazy tactical feats like walls of water and traps, stunning models at range, poison everywhere etc etc. But I can't see GCT doing that, they have been very good at sticking to their faction themes-

Prefecture will rarely have good feats that aren't melee/command based, but will be the best all round warriors.

Temple will rarely have survivable models, but will be fast and have the best Ki stats and the most feats.

Cult will rarely have models that are good at anything stats wise (MS 3 is elite for us!) but will have properly nasty feats and the widest spread of troop types.

Wave models individually are the least flexible, but their Oni (whilst low MS) are devastating fighters and Bakemono are the most highly strategic cheap troops if used right.

Ito aren't going to be as good as the prefecture at anything fighty, but will be a lot faster and have access to more feats and crazier abilities.

obviously we can all think of exceptions to these rules, but they are exceptions, so they dont overthrow the balance much. in summary- slightly cheaper killamatrons in the prefecture? what's new?;)

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I agree with Greeny, here. The Prefecture's schtick is having the best fighters around. I don't see them winning more than their share.

 

I also agree that Critical Strike is better as a rarity. It is powerful. It is a bit boring to fight.
Keep it rare, in particular the CS (0)'s. CS (1)'s is an interesting choice. CS (0) a boring no-brainer.

 

(In particular if one of the other choices is Powerful attack (1), which is a silly choice in almost all cases.)

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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Malhorme wrote:

Condidereing the success rate (17%), you can not even say it is random: it is higly likely you will get it in the game, so you can not answer :"yes, but it never happens, and you only remember cases where it did work" So you can not even consider it is bad luck when you lot your warior: it was highly predicatable.

This is pretty contradictory, 17% is no where near "highly likely", predictable yes but not likely.  There is a simple counter to Crit Strike and thats to defend better, monks can boost MS far more than a samurai so you should have no problem rolling more dice than prefecture in combat; if the big bad samurai can't hit you he can't crit strike. 

If you were to make it a (1) cost it's of such low chance of success (coupled with the fact you need a hit first) people wouldn't use it unless you were prone, surrounded and the prefecture player has such an abundance of dice that you are probably dead anyway.

 

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Lol, just like ivory prison attack no way except exhausted, outnumbered, prone, then, all you have to do is hit and bam! Instant kill and free kairai, when the prefecture can do that I'll start worrying:)

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I also think that Critical ruins the game. When only Hiro had ir was nice, you pay a bit more than Hagane for a chance of insta-kill  hard targets. But sature the game with critical strike and the game will be more killing and less tactics...
Greeny wrote:
Will these 9 rice chaps be better against fear? nope, what about spotting Mo-Ises skulking around? nope, What about not getting  controlled and CS'ing hanso in the back? nope, in fact they aren't better at anything than anyone else in the faction, what they do  is make the prefecture list building a bit more interesting. 

 

Isn't true. Indeed, they have 2 Ki and bravery, much better than the ashigaru, and the same as monks. But also 3 armor and nasty  special attack for free.
And not only the warriors. If you take Daisuke and Atsuko, you will see that Daisuke has First Strike, More Ki! (and the temple  being "the faction of ki...) and can Heal at limited distance.
Greeny wrote:
Temple will rarely have survivable models, but will be fast and have the best Ki stats and the most feats.
That isn't true again. The monks are faster only paying ki, that they need to fight (the prefacture killamatrons don't), but without  ki, the prefacture are equally fast (more with Hanso). Also, the Ki stats are better overall in the Prefacture except for the 2  Masters. They have more models with 2 ki. So "the faction of the ki" is missing something.
And if you use Ekusa for having and manage ki, its not a faction thing. Youre paying for the Master.
 
In my local club now the prefacture is overpowered. You need little "tactics". Also I see that the prefacture won almost all  Competitions played. They speak for themselves.
 
I remember when Araka had Strong ranged attacks for 9 rice. Also the Large rat Swarm 4 dice for 6 rice. The are fixed now, and the  game works fine. I hope the twins got fixed too, cause the game is breaking. I play and own Prefacture, Temple, Wave and Ito, and  play these models seems like cheating :(

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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This goes back to faction as a whole if you ask me.  You can't really compare "without ki" as that is a central part to the game so you can't exclude it from a discussion.  Temple monks are well supported with ki from Ekusa, buffs from Aiko, the 'faith' ability and more healing than anyone else as far as I can see.  A Prefecture Samurai has no synergy to the rest of the warband, he is on his own in a combat so to speak and the only way to get out of combat is to kill his enemy or disengage (although he can be healed and i'm speaking 1 on 1 here for comparison purposes).
 
Haven't played my temple in so long so I just looked at the cards for comparison and I can see that Kenko for instance can boost at least 4 times for 8 dice (more with faith), thats twice as much as any prefecture samurai (Hagane being the exception of 3 dice) and if the samurai is boosting he can do it he has to save up his ki to do it and not use parry/feint etc.  You tell me Temple are not the masters of ki.
 
 

 

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Just to clarify- I was comparing the twins to other samura, and monks not peasants and ashigaru, of course they have better stats than those, so for a change I'm not wrong here:) bravery doesn't help against opposed.ki tests, use Ekusa, ikiryo, the shisai and other opposed nastiness. Although gct may want to becareful if three prefecture really do have the most 2 ki models a that could unbalance thingswith future releases.

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Orochi wrote:
This goes back to faction as a whole if you ask me.  You can't really compare "without ki" as that is a central part to the game so you can't exclude it from a discussion.  Temple monks are well supported with ki from Ekusa, buffs from Aiko, the 'faith' ability and more healing than anyone else as far as I can see.  A Prefecture Samurai has no synergy to the rest of the warband, he is on his own in a combat so to speak and the only way to get out of combat is to kill his enemy or disengage (although he can be healed and i'm speaking 1 on 1 here for comparison purposes).
 
Haven't played my temple in so long so I just looked at the cards for comparison and I can see that Kenko for instance can boost at least 4 times for 8 dice (more with faith), thats twice as much as any prefecture samurai (Hagane being the exception of 3 dice) and if the samurai is boosting he can do it he has to save up his ki to do it and not use parry/feint etc.  You tell me Temple are not the masters of ki.
 
 

 

You are boosting Kenko to barely  fight a samurai. He dont need that ki, but also has Ki. They win allmost all the time. And you are spending rice in supports to boosts that monks. You are spending the supoports ki, and the rice. The prefacture spends his rice in more fighters, and without spending the ki of his ashigaru. How you spend the ki does not transforms one faction in the faction of ki if the ki amount is the same for both, because is a resource, that one faction "need" to play properly, and the other only for being more nasty.

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All this does not answer my issue:
I can not do anything.
Some say : cast more dice in def.
Easy said, but when playing temple, how do you manage not beeing outnumbered?
Maybe aiko will block jin? Or is it that the air lami must self sacrifice at turn 2 to bloc pref?
I had three fighter out of 6 min.
The gorillia was engaged with jin, kitsun defending an objectif against minuro and fuji, and riku defending hanso and genji, while the peasant was aiming at the idol.
Greeny, that is easy to say bushido is not about killing, but it's not true: at turn 2, when there a only 3 objectives, you have to face your fow. Or you don't play.
So now, please tell me how do i manage to cast more dice in def than my fow, when i am outnumber, and that my ki was used to raise a wall to protect my minis from minuro?

I agree with Artrus: with joueur1156 with frequently exchange factions, and Prefecture almost NEVER loses, whoever plays, whatever the scenario (we play wave, a little ito and temple)

EDIT: Sorry, i dont want to be agressive, of course. Greeny, in particular, my words are may be a bit too sharp, please don't take it bad ;-)

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my words seems too sharp also. Im sorry if I sound agressive. Its not my intention. its only that im again worried about the game. I will give a chance to Takashi Family, but I think that is realy overpowered and 'kills' some of the essence of the game.

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Malhorme wrote:

All this does not answer my issue: I can not do anything. Some say : cast more dice in def. Easy said, but when playing temple, how do you manage not beeing outnumbered? Maybe aiko will block jin? Or is it that the air lami must self sacrifice at turn 2 to bloc pref? I had three fighter out of 6 min. The gorillia was engaged with jin, kitsun defending an objectif against minuro and fuji, and riku defending hanso and genji, while the peasant was aiming at the idol. Greeny, that is easy to say bushido is not about killing, but it's not true: at turn 2, when there a only 3 objectives, you have to face your fow. Or you don't play. So now, please tell me how do i manage to cast more dice in def than my fow, when i am outnumber, and that my ki was used to raise a wall to protect my minis from minuro? I agree with Artrus: with joueur1156 with frequently exchange factions, and Prefecture almost NEVER loses, whoever plays, whatever the scenario (we play wave, a little ito and temple) EDIT: Sorry, i dont want to be agressive, of course. Greeny, in particular, my words are may be a bit too sharp, please don't take it bad ;-)

I will try to see this as a Temple player not a prefecture player, I think Temple has some good counters.

Kenko seems pretty good for dealing with prefecture samurai, he can get armour, he can boost to 8 dice, does not get outnumbered (indomitable) and can split attack to tire ashigaru and the like.  I would suggest either try to get a 1on1 with a samurai and smash face in the hope that your opponent doesn't hit and with being able to role more dice than the samurai that should be okay as by turn 2 the samurai will at most roll 5 dice and then it's back to 4; conversely mop up the ashigaru key targets with Kenko and take out the key targets - Fujitaka/Hanso/Junichi who can't do their combo's/buff's if tired/engaged.

Throw Po in and you have two very hard hitting guys - just noticed he has unblockable strike too, Samurai dont have first strike in prefecture (that's Ito domain) unless it's Eiji but he doesn't seem to be the problem here; send Po in and take the samurai out seems pretty good.

I'd also try counter attack defence with Riku, go all defence, the prefecture player will (if I were playing) roll about 2-3 in attack, 1-2 in defence counting on martial prowess to not roll a 1, with the number of dice you should be rolling 3+ boosts you should defend and then be able for a high enough success to deal some damage back.

Maybe try this and let me/us know how it goes.  I will agree prefecture are good but they are supposed to be good at military wins as I said above, exploit their weaknesses, play some more games, try playing prefecture if you like to swap warbands so you can see where their stregths and weakenesses are.

 

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Hi, and thank you for the answer. I will answer point by point

 

[/quote]

Orochi wrote:

I will try to see this as a Temple player not a prefecture player, I think Temple has some good counters.

To be clear, the question is not : Does Temple have good fighter, but how to manage CS.

Orochi wrote:

Kenko seems pretty good for dealing with prefecture samurai, he can get armour, he can boost to 8 dice, does not get outnumbered (indomitable) and can split attack to tire ashigaru and the like.  I would suggest either try to get a 1on1 with a samurai and smash face in the hope that your opponent doesn't hit and with being able to role more dice than the samurai that should be okay as by turn 2 the samurai will at most roll 5 dice and then it's back to 4

 

Yes, this is true, but none of these has any value against CS.

I understand your point : kill the samourai fast and ensure you are not touched, even by a 0 SL.

Bening able to be active player when facing samurais implies either wining tactical roll (oups, hanso won it again) or spending KI to walk faster Oups, I need the Ki to fight).Nevertheless, let's say I won it.

Samourai have armor 3 : they can keep one dice for defense (max two) and the rest in attack. Do the calculation : even if I keep 4 dice for defense, there is a high chance level that the samourai wins his attack (roughlty 33% as in case of even score, the att wins with SL0).

So, even when saving ki and playing defensive, i can not ensure I am not touched in return

Issue : if I am keeping so much dice to defend, when do I attack?? If I put dice in attack, how can I one shoot? Po can indeed, but is is the only one (Check : to one shoot, kenko needs SL 5 to have a chance to oneshoot a Armour 3).

So, If I want to avoid beeing hit, I don't see much options. Yes I can play defensively, does not solve the issue

Orochi wrote:

conversely mop up the ashigaru key targets with Kenko and take out the key targets - Fujitaka/Hanso/Junichi who can't do their combo's/buff's if tired/engaged.

That is why I use Kamis. However, don't forget you also have Minuro. If I don't care of minuro, I'll also have a BIG hole in my monks.

By the way, a smart pref player will never engage both supports on Kenko!

Orochi wrote:

Throw Po in and you have two very hard hitting guys - just noticed he has unblockable strike too, Samurai dont have first strike in prefecture (that's Ito domain) unless it's Eiji but he doesn't seem to be the problem here; send Po in and take the samurai out seems pretty good.

Yes, Po is a solution. hard to fit in a competitive 35 rice list, or I take out Aiko or Peasant or Kami

Po + Kenko = 21 pts

Aiko + one kami = 8 pts

Remains 6 points = Hotaru, and that is not a competitive list (no peasent, so no faith, the kami can not play scenarios and so). I belive my list to bo good, but can not resit CS :

Aiko (for heal, move faster...)

Air Kami (love this guy, to disrupt fows lines, move Minuro behind a wall and in last resort engage BtB)

Peasant (for bodyguard, faith and scenario)

Riku (for his obscuring wall, CDA and excellent figther)

Kitsune (scenario and week fows, could swap with kenko or yumi)

Guardian (becomes usefull with air kami to change fows orientations, and avoid pesky first stricks and push attacks).

 

Orochi wrote:

I'd also try counter attack defence with Riku, go all defence, the prefecture player will (if I were playing) roll about 2-3 in attack, 1-2 in defence counting on martial prowess to not roll a 1, with the number of dice you should be rolling 3+ boosts you should defend and then be able for a high enough success to deal some damage back.

Well, this is more or less what I do, but I don't agree. As I said above, 3 dice in attack Vs 4 dice is defense is no where a solution to deal damage to a samurai, and not even certain to defend (I'll do the calculation i a few minutes).

Orochi wrote:

Maybe try this and let me/us know how it goes.  I will agree prefecture are good but they are supposed to be good at military wins as I said above, exploit their weaknesses, play some more games, try playing prefecture if you like to swap warbands so you can see where their stregths and weakenesses are.

 

Thanks for the tips.

I have been playing pref and temple for about one year 1/2, and played dozens of games, both with and against Pref.

Don't misunderstand me : i know to play them (aside the hanso active trick you learnt me), and know how to play against.

Yet, after so many games, i find them to be good, very good, and better than others, and today, my real issue is that i do not find any way to avoid exposure to Critical Strike.

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Well I tried to help...

 

I think maybe you are putting too much emphasis on critical strike attack, you had a bad game and got taken out early on by the sounds of it.  So what?  Play again see if your opponent does it again.  The 'downside' to critcal strike is the low chance of it happening and your opponent (Joueur) got lucky early on, it happens.  Pick yourself up and try again, next time if and when you win you will feel the better for it I say.

 

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This debate is now gone to "is CS OP?" and "is pref op?".  The point that Malhorme tries to highlight is that CS can make the opponent loose despite a very good tactic. That appends last night, when I made a lot of mistakes (underestimate the wind kami boot -> kitsune attacked minuro turn one, underestimate the wind kami shoot -> my jin turned his back to the gorilla turn one), and CS made me win the game when Riku was one shooted by Eiji...

You can loose a model with bad luck, like a triple one in defence. But CS isn't bad luck, when a model makes a damage roll 6 or 7 time a game (like a samourai should do), it likely appends...

I do not take position for or against CS. I just try to explain what Malhorme's saying.

And this is valuable for any model with CS(0). (my opinion : CS(1) is a non-sens).

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i don't like the fact its a success level 0 and you still outright kill your opponent that does get quite annoying as that has nothing to do with skill level or not just a lucky dice roll (or unlucky on the part of defender) 

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In the previous rules, CS was "any double on a damage roll equals a double six" (sorry if the formulation sounds french or whatever, I hope you remember). Previously, a double six meant that the ennemy model was removed from the play. Then, old CS and new CS are the same. But maybe it should now only be a simple double six, aka the maximum damage you can do with the SL (ignore armour, not toughness).

Example: Eiji (the badass) rolls a double 5 with a SL of 3. Its opponent take 6 wounds (before toughness). If the SL is 0, the opponent takes 3 wounds.

It is still powerfull (because it ignores armour), but you can try to ease the pain while decreasing the SL with a lot of dice in defence...

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Orochi wrote:

Well I tried to help...

 

I think maybe you are putting too much emphasis on critical strike attack, you had a bad game and got taken out early on by the sounds of it.  So what?  Play again see if your opponent does it again.  The 'downside' to critcal strike is the low chance of it happening and your opponent (Joueur) got lucky early on, it happens.  Pick yourself up and try again, next time if and when you win you will feel the better for it I say.

 

Dont worry, i know your are tring and gave good advises.
And i know i'am pissed off as well.
Tjs anyway

(byw, have you tried playing temple against same type of list?) would lile to have feedback from the other side?

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The problem lies on the fact that, since it's automatic and the model has MS4 with Martial Prowess he will impact his enemies in almost every fight (I'm talking about an average model, which is MS2 or MS3 which is the most common, even among very expensive units). That means that every exchange has a 16% chance to crit, even in succes level 0. So, if this model is in the center of the boeard, it will fight at least twice per turn (if not more, when the opponent tries to lock him down with two models). Regarding there's no fights in turn 1, that's a far minimum of 10 fights. That means the crit will trigger once or twice per game, if not more in case of more fights.

It's quite overpowered, since the samurai only needs to put 1 or 2 dies in attack when attacked to maximize defense and get unscratched. Meanwhile, he has no need to get a high succes level, just defend once and again (even overhelmed, yay, he has  MS 4) and the crit will trigger from time to time.

It would be fine if only Hiro could do it automatically, as he would be the only model with that unique mechanic. A MS3 model with Critical Strike (1) is nice because the model can't be constantly using the skill, and the player can't rely paying the dice to activate the special attack because it's a lucky roll. BUT, that unit can use it defensively, as a menace. If a 10 wound model, even with toughness, will have to think it twice when attacking the mentioned model, as 2 dice (1 attack, 1 defense) with Martial Progress can be easily beaten, but there's the change that even a SL0 hit can instakill him.

The nice use of Critical Strike in other models rather than Hiro should require a sacrifice (or hich cost sacrifice, depending the model and the cost), to avoid triggering it constantly.

Just remebemer that if the minimum is about 10 fights in a game, Hiro + Eeji means a minimum of 20 fights where CS will probably trigger, if not more. And all those, totally automatic with no need of sacrifice, ki spending, feat activation, tactic or anything similar other factions rely on to beat the Prefecture. And, of course, then these models have they're own traits and feats as every other model in the game, making them even more efficient above that MS4 Martial Prowess + Armor (3) + Strenght +1 (Hey, how many ki must a Monk spend to boost to that level? Eeji needs 0, so he can spend it to boost other feats).

 

Anyway, I see that the game will go on this way. I just hope GCT staff don't start pumping every new models to compensate previous overpowerness.

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Musashi
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Not to derail the derailing of the original topic, but I prefer Eiji.  I love first strike and push defense.  Having push defense along with MS4 and armour 3 makes for a fantastically survivable unit ( like prefecture is lacking in this department... ).  As to the OPness of genji and his CS(0), he is just as susceptible to all the same things our other samurai are.  Sometimes prefecture will get lucky on CS and kill your oni at SL0, and sometimes the cult just won't die because they make every single rise test.  The game is what it is, and I haven't seen anything that is any more consistently OP than anything else.

 

 

Musashi

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