Yama Uba's morph and apparition shenanigans

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Axiam
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Yama Uba's morph and apparition shenanigans

Curious to know if Yama Uba can declare a melee action, gain btb with an enemy, steal something nice from something badass (martial prowess 2 for example) enforce a fear check, start the melee and then apparition at step 2 of the melee exchange, to escape the combat prior to any dice rolls. If so, does this also tire the enemy one level, as though the combat took place, or would it count as interrupting the melee steps so the models do not hit the tire step? Would this also result in being a free action for Yama Uba? Presumably apparition cannot be used in step 8 of a melee on an opponents turn to attack because that is reserved for instant ki feats only? She is a very interesting character!

Ret-Fleafa
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I doubt that was the intended use, but I can't see why you couldn't do it at Step 2. Pretty crafty.

I think Yama Uba would become tired, having carried out an Action, but her opponent would not, as Step 11 was never reached.

Wogshrog
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Active Ki Feat doesn't specify any timing as when you can use them in Melee and in the latest errata it's specified that any effect without timing can be used any time an Instant Ki feat can be used. So I'd say it works, you can even roll all out attack and use Apparition before your opponent roll any dmg as long as you're the Active player. I don't think it's the intent though.

GCT Master Enos
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You can use it.

You'd get no melee roll, the opponent would not worsen condition, Yama Uba would as she declared a melee action, similar to trying to melee an opponent with Mirage.

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As Woghrog said. I don't think it is intended you can use apparition (and any active ki feat if you are the acive player) at the step 8 of a melee exchange.

I think it is a bug bring with the latest errata.

Only instant ki feats sould be usable at the step 8.

Axiam
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Thanks for the responses!

@Wrogshrog: I don't think you can use apparition at step 8 of the opponents initiative because it explicitly states you can use "instant ki feats", which are a defined thing in the rules separate to active ki feats. So whether an active player feat works like an instant or not, they unfortunately aren't the same thing.

@Jason: I'm not sure I agree with it being like mirage as that feat occurs prior to the melee beginning, whereas both models will have committed to being in a melee exchange prior to apparition being used as part of that melee exchange, it just doesn't allow all the steps. So it asks the question: hasn't the opponent participated in a melee exchange and therefore is as tired as Yama Uba who has participated as much? Especially as the tiring of the opponent is also mentioned on page 5, in regards to melee exchanges, separate from the melee exchange steps.

Either way it gives some great tactical options for wasting opponents ki, getting something through morph or causing the frightened state without the possibility of injury so I'm happy to play it as ruled. I just wanted to highlight the loophole in the text around 'when is a melee exchange not a melee exchange?'

Looking forward to trying the little tactical tool box! :)

Axiam

GCT Master Enos
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Do you mean this:
 

Timing:  Any effect which does not specify when it can be used should be used any time an instant Ki feat can be used.

This errata does not interact with Active Ki Feats.

Active Ki feats already have timing so the errata does not apply to them, they cannot be used at Step 8 of Melee Exchanges.

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Wogshrog
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@Master Enos : Why can't Active Ki feat be used at step 8 ? The only timing for Active Ki feat is Being the active player, only instant Ki feat have specific Melee timing. I'd rather avoid my opponent getting out of Melee at step 8 but I don't see what I should tell them.

Axiam
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Sorry to jump in here but my earlier comment answers this. It states instant ki feats can be used step 8. Active player ki feats regardless of timings are not instant ki feats.
You can tell your opponent that if it doesn't have an I in the feat description it is not an acceptable feat to use.

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Update of prior post: I should say "feat's timing description" as I am aware a feat could have an I in the name :/

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Wogshrog
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If the Timing rule (Any effect which does not specify when it can be used should be used any time an instant Ki feat can be used) doesn't apply to Active Ki feat, they have no timing limitation while in Melee, only Instant Ki feat do. One could then argue that Active Ki feat could be used at any step during Melee.

Ret-darkframboisier
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Whogshrog is right: if the rules says an effect can be used at any time an Instant Ki feat would be, it means what it means, you can use it any time you could an active Ki feat, ergo it could trigger on step 8. If you don't want this effect for an active ki feat, then the rule should be written otherwise. Right kow you could even use Kuma's ability on step 8 if you want, all them verify the present written rule.

But it shouldn't be that hard to clarify or to errate this properly. Or keep it this way, I like the idea of a tactical "shadow move", I even think that would be great if it tired both models, mechanics-wise, it gives some kind of shadow blocking for way stronger opponents for a bit of ki. Great tactical option.

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Well, it seems we've all been mentally filling in the Active timing rules our selves for 5 years!

Active:

·         Can only be used at any time when this model’s Controller is the Active Player, even if it is not the Active Model except during Melee Exchanges or Ranged Attacks - where the timing is restricted as detailed under the Melee Exchanges and Ranged Attacks sections.

·         Because this is not an action, it can be combined with a Simple or Complex action if the model is the Active model.

 

Other than in a melee exchange or ranged attack, if both players wish to use Instant or Active Ki feats the active player goes first.  It is important to remember that Instant and Active Ki Feats, as well as Ki Boosts, cannot be used to affect dice that have already been rolled. Any traits or effects that would affect a roll or test must be declared and any cost paid before dice are rolled.

 
So you can use Instant or Active feats at step 2, the permitted feats at step 4 and Instant only at step 8.

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Wogshrog
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I'm totally fine with this errata, new rulling, whatever it is. It felt wrong having someone disappear mid fight.

Can we have a sticky post in the rules section with all the new rules not currently in the game ? Might come handy to answer peoples questions.

GCT Master Enos
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I will try to get a sticky sorted.  This will go in the errata after Grand Masters this year.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

yenohoney