Prayer of purification Ki Feat

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Damon Carlton
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Prayer of purification Ki Feat

Just an observation and I will state that currently I do not play a war band that has this ki feat.

With the errata change to the trait heal, I am thinking the no move symbol to this ki feat should be removed? Would that be inline with the thinking behind the change to the heal trait?

Or am I way off in my thinking?

GCT Master Enos
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Good spot, its an interesting comparison to make.  

This is something I am aware of but I want to see them play as is before adding more balance errata.

I'd like to hear what people think or, more importantly, how its played in games.

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Wogshrog
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If you could consider changing Cleansing to a Simple action too, that would be really nice as I don't play Ryuhobo a lot and when I do it's as a Ki battery.

GCT Master Enos
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So when you suggest these things I have to consider, for example, the effect that has on Ito and their poison tokens.  The faction isn't quite defined by them but they contribute a lot to their melee and ranged damage output (Trust me I tracked poison damage through multiple games).

If we give easier access to cleansing effects, would that change the faction too much?  Would they need more accelerate venom?  Would they need more base damage to make up for less poison or maybe they just suffer that drawback?

That's just one faction, cult generate every type of counter/marker cleansing effects remove!  It would seriously alter their capabilities to give easier access to marker removal.

Hisao almost never uses cleansing, ryuhobo almost never hits the table, same with atsuko.  Daisuke is the game's best healer though, does he need a boost?

This is just a few of the issues this raises, its also about what a model can do in one turn, should Hisao be able to inspiration and cleansing?  Its all inter connected but I have my eye on it.  What helps me is data from games played, if you play 10 games and notice patterns then that's good info for me.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

HMK
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I really like how much thought that goes into changes like that. Very reassuring to hear your trail of thought. I have no direct input on this, havnt really played any healers much. But in general, things that need setting up over more than one action can be difficult and require much planning and guessing what both you and your opponent will do. For better and worse, i guess. I like the chesslike tactical play, but some minis can be difficult to use and require lot of playtime to understand. But if it breaks a faction, i rather have no changes like mentioned above.

off the actual topic, but concerning when rules gets in the way of doing cool stuff, i'd love waka to lose heavy. I have thrown that statue like once. Its such a cool thing to do, but too difficult to actually do when he cant move and throw. I find it almost always preferable to smash face in melee instead. Maybe lose the critical rule to compensate. I just want to throw that statue more. ;)

 

Wogshrog
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Daisuke and all the models with the Heal trait already got an upgrade.

Cleansing Is not going to change him, it's going to maybe allow people to play Ryuhobo or Hisao as some healer your opponent can't ignore. 

Prayer of purification removes more Token type than Cleasing, I think it's way better as it's an Active Ki feat. Yes you can't move and use it but you can bring any model who is in need of it in contact with your Shisai, whoever he is.

You don't want people able to just discard Ito's poison, I get that. I don't think I have ever removed a token, our Ito player use it to be sure he'll kill you with a poison 2 token. I'll try to convince him to spread more poison to see how it looks like.

I can't talk for other model but Ryuhobo need some love because without any melee weapon, my opponent only need 1 def dice to almost completely nullify his attack. And I'm not gonna clear their Dark secret control token as I'd better go into melee and full def.

I know it's really hard to balance a game, so far you've been great at it and even if you don't change these Ki feat I'm still going to play Ryuhobo, because I like the sculpture. But for now he's only providing some Leech/Channel.

GCT Master Enos
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I'm not saying it won't happen, just we have to be careful with changes.

These are all valid points and I am playing a lot of the peasants theme right now so I get 2 of these models in my games.  

Also I don't want to put in a lot of frivolous errata, the bigger the errata the harder it is for new players to get into this game.  If this gets added and still nobody plays those models I added a page to the errata for no real gain.

In short, I like these suggestions, but I'll have to look carefully at all current and future models affected.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Damon Carlton
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I totally agree with GCT Master Enos. Too much change in a short amount of time ruins a game. I've never played maulifaux but I've heard that a lot of players have stopped playing as there have been too many changes and we don't want that to happen with this great game.

If I can suggest 2 things;

1: no more than 2 errata's a year imo. Probably just one to make little fixes we all play along.

2: Use/promote Fleaf'a's integrated PDF for new players rather than a rule book and errata. Maybe do a separate pdf for the Stat card revisions as these are not in his rule book???

I am loving this game and did my first ever introduction evening last night to 3 friends and all 3 have asked to play again which is great news and also have asked for the rules and I will be sending them Fleafa's doc later today. I will post some pics of that later today on the facebook page

 

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GCT Master Enos
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We usually have only 1 errata per year, right after Masters.  Issues which come up at the event are fixed (There's always something...)

This year we will have 2 erratas because we didn't have one last year and issues piled up a bit and I didn't want to wait to fix them.

I know things are hectic for us with the Pioneers Program game and some office changes (One new computer and all the applications need changing over...) but we have previously updated a rulebook .PDF and all the cards in the store.  I expect we will return to that.

So there will be one more errata in the usual place after masters.  Unless there is something major and game breaking with waves 35 -38 (Looking at you Envy) they will go back to one per year.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Wogshrog
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For now the only errata that's needed is Hail of steel. Having 4 ninja that can each do 5 dmg on average is too much for my liking. Everything else is a luxury to promote some underused models.

Of topic, that would be great to have a downloadable/printable version of the card that have been errated, in the download section, ideally per faction.

The integrated pdf verstion of the rules made by Fleafa is really great and is the one most player I know are using. Having it in the download section would be nice too.

GCT Master Enos
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Hail of Steel is possibly going to be changed before Masters this year.  We knew this would be an issue and I have a solution but I like to get data from as many sources as possible.  I have asked retainers but so far nobody has posted anything (I'm sure they are just playing their test games).  If anyone wanbts to post short reports about how games go with 4 HoS ninjas with shuriken and likely the Poison (3) card, feel free to make a thread in the Faction Forum and I'll see it.

The two games I watched, the Ninjas were handled pretty easily so I don't weant to go OTT with it.

I'm also looking at something in the future, if you want my advice as a KKZ player, practice without HoS spam.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Damon Carlton
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Having 4 hail of steel is something to be feared but I play KKZ and I don't think you will be able to win a tourney with that list imo.

having 4 is probably ott but the simple fix in my opinion, would be to add an errata to the apprentices saying any ki feats eccept hail of steel. And to balance that out you could let the apprentices access to any ki feat on the main 7 ninja's not just in your warband?

Lets face it Katsumi is feeling ill, got the shits, can't even hold his bowels long enough to get dressed why wouldn't his apprentice tag along to a battle if numbers were needed?????

Just my rambling thoughts on this subject

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A proud owner of a gold Bushido coin and a wooden spoon.

Ret-darkframboisier
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Well the couple of games we had with 2 Hail of steel were already disturbing: On turn 2, Bikou and Kouhei walked to close range (you couldn't do much before that) and spammed to death the first 2 victims that were there. After that they simply fought and waited to side step, then Hail of Steel again on turn 3. Each Hail of steel killed models outright.

I even  killed a Buto in 1 one activation with the 3 shuriken of Bikou, but, hey, from behind on a big target, the TN becomes 2, 3 shots with an average of 6-7 on the dice.

What we had with the couple of games we played like this was that there isn't much you can do about it.

Unless we do something wrong, how can you avoid 3 shots having an average of level 5-6 success, behind shot from close range (thanks light weight)? There is cover, but ninjas are mobile and usually move to cancel it...

I guess it will take somebody to go to the grandmasters with the 4 hail of steel so that poeple can see the result for themselves. For our group, we didn't wait for the studio to see the problem, we already allow 1 hail of steel on the table - 1 can be dealt with - 2 means it's gonna be hard. 4 means 4 models less for your opponent on turn 2...

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Almost forgot, tested it a long time ago with kouhei and the Poison 3 event: it was simply overkill.

Used it on Yatsumata, the poor thing had 1 wound left after the hail of steel. Having 3 poison 3 markers on him after that felt too much of an excess of power.

GCT Master Enos
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Its not a matter of seeing it, the first game I played after I saw Ujimushi was 3 HoS and then I watched a few with 4 when I had Wamu.  

I wouldn't artificially limit things like that, it means you are playing a different game to the rest of us but it's up to your group of course.

I have been looking at the issue and in general, the ninjas still lose.  Bushido isn't about killing models, so even if HoS does that very well, you can still lose the game and thats been my main experience.
In fact the SMS ranged list seems to be doing better overall.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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