Hibiki Jung is overpowered

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fabiusbile
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Hibiki Jung is overpowered

Hi, I'm a Jung player and was very exited when I received my new member Hibiki.

But after 2 games, I have a bad feeling and think he is game breaker.

My 2 friends are veteran player, not beginner.

 

Fisrt game scenario : The messenger.

My opponent has a classic Ito list but without range attack.

I ran a Queen of the Wave theme list with Mari Jung.

1st Turn : I use order from Mari Jung. So Hibiki walk then run then run with leap and ellusive (vault).

I play Hibiki in last and as my opponent run out of activavtion due to order I can moove freely my Hibiki,

20" in one turn. Hibiki was the WIM so I gain the first victory point.

 

2nd turn : I go first but I failed le target ki test from the Ito Theme so Hibiki can't this turn use any feat.

With 5" mvt and auto disengage he escape without any problème from the ennemy corner.

 

3rd 4th 5th turn : I play badly, in the end of the game I have just Hibiki who was BtB with Mari Jung and with Parley activate, there is nothing he can do....

In fact the game was win in the first turn...

 

 

Second game scenario : The messenger again

My opponent has a classic temple list but without range attack.

I ran a Black sail theme list.

With this theme Hibiki gain tireless.

To keep some fun I annonce in the begining of the game that i will not use the ki feat Parley.

But with 5" mvt , autodisengage, dodge, martial prowess, vitality , tireless from the theme, he was just impossible to catch.

 

After these 2 games I am frustrated. I like the concept of the mini, I like its playstyle. But I feel like cheating when using it.

 

 

I even asked me if Hibiki has been beta tested.

The messenger is almost an auto win with Hibiki.

Sure you can beat his Parley with a soulless model, but when a model can hard counter 50% of the lists, the game turn into a rock paper scisor game.

 

Please, can someone prove me I am wrong.

I love the mini and I'd like to keep playing it, but I'd also llike to keep my friend.

 

Thank you

MistakeNot
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In that first game, did your opponent not have more than two models available in the second turn? Auto Disengage is nice enough when you're not Exhausted but once that happens, he's mostly stuck and he's only got 3 dice. Sounds like they didn't set up to stop or catch him well enough.

Second game, Tireless does make him a lot more slippery, but the 3 dice still doesn't stop being a thing. If he's using Vitality, he won't have Ki for Parley, if he Parleys just exhaust him then disengage and walk away.

 

I can see him being super strong in VIM scenarios, so try other scenarios too. Some models and factions just kinda own some scenarios. Debuffing Ki Feats should give him big issues, since he has no defenses against them, or any other debuffs really.

Ret-A_Palmer
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Hmm, Parley shouldn’t be working on friendly models in BtB, it’s there to halt enemy models.  I’ll discuss it with Master Enos.

fabiusbile
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It is nevertheless a major issue that one guy can almost solo win a scenario...

The probleme is that Hibiki hard counter some type of lists and turn the game in a rock paper scisor from the creation of the lists.

 

And then, even without the context of VIM scenario.

When he use Parley, he is unkillable by melee attack. So the plan for my opponent is to ignore him and let him do his stuff ?

fabiusbile
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We hadn't speak of its obvious combo : parley+throw defense

 

MistakeNot said : Second game, Tireless does make him a lot more slippery, but the 3 dice still doesn't stop being a thing. If he's using Vitality, he won't have Ki for Parley, if he Parleys just exhaust him then disengage and walk away.

It is not possible. With black sail he is tireless. Moreover, when is has parley and you melee him you get auto throw.

Even without vitality, he can easily get 3 activation with order..

 

GCT Master Enos
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I think Parley is the problem, its wording was based on Aura of Serenity but it looks like we had a copy/paste problem as 2 clauses were dropped at some point during playtesting.  The Agressive part was spotted immeditely after going for pre-order but the "No Special Defences" clause should also be in there.

Also it should require an enemy model to work and looking over the playtest file it did to begin with so I think during some update, the feat became broken.  Sorry!  Look to a change to the feat wording soon.
(We will release a few changes before Grand Masters this year so that the big event is played as fair as possible).

 

Scoring turn 1 in the messenger is a problem with that scenario I'm afraid.  I watched Chris Hales do it with Rashka and thats scary!  VIM scenarios will be looked at after Expo Grand Masters this year as some are showing their age and getting "Gamed" rather than played.

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fabiusbile
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Auto-disengage is an extremely powerfull tool.

I think the combo auto-disengage + tireless shoudn't be possible.

The problem is the same with the swarm. 

Axiam
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He'll get exhausted eventually. Most warbands are capable of getting to an opponents deployment zone turn 1, with the right combinations of models and events/gear. It's just something you have to consider when looking at your opponents warband and capabilities and think about what strategies to employ to stop them. When I play messenger as ninjas I spend the first turn sitting in my zone focusing for the ki I know I'm going to need turn 2. This makes it virtually impossible for a turn one shenanigan messenger getting into my zone and loads me up with what I need to get my own VIM there in turn two while encouraging my opponent to come closer, making it easier for Shizuka to sneak by at excessive pace and for Katsumi to take down anyone looking suspiciously like they are trying to get to my zone.

Axiam

Ret-darkframboisier
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I guess the issue is not just the one thing, but the accumulation of the different - apparently unforeseen - possibilities.

You can't consider only him, but but as a whole in the team: the rest of the warbdan isn't gonna just watch, and right now, hibiki could single-handely auto-win on most VIM scenarios. And this was pretty obvious from the start.

What bugs me a lot lately is that every wave is plagued with mistakes, erratas, typos, or models that are to be errated ON RELEASE. It's like day 1 patches in MMOs - feels very unprofessionnal.

My personal advice would be to maybe slow down the releases, maybe take some more time to test, inspect profiles and cards, now filled with mistakes and typos, because right now, the whole Bushido experience feel really rushed, amateurished, flawed and untested... No more preview painted on the shop, only the Z-brush doesn't help with the 'unfinished feel' we get lately. Most profiles feels rushed because most of the problems they underline seems very obvious.

C'mon, it took us 5 seconds reading the cards to see things like Parley are OP, the new references either have ranged weapons and no stats, or the other way around, or the profiles are already known to be errated even before hitting your mail box. Who is verifying anything right now? (I did it with the silvermoon guy, didn't do much in the end, my game card is typoed (was it already printed before the profile was submitted to rets? Is it even worth asking them when things are already decided before their opinions?)

I'll have a hard time advocating the game locally: most people don't want to have to be connected 24/7 to the forum knowing that their reference cards are obsolete day 1, or prone to an errata every day. It's a hard sell when they buy a model in a blister with a Jung symbol when you have an Ito model inside (it seems conditioning of the blisters has gone crazy these last waves) I have spent some time trying to explain to beginners that there was some blister mix-up, but this has bveen going on for a while, that the guy in their blister isn't doing what is written on the card, or that a profile is already changed before a player finished painting it... some people take months to paint their warbands, right now it feels like it's already time for 2 or 3 erratas, or announced erratas.

All I'm saying is: cool the thing down, calm the releases, read your cards at least once before mass printing them, I know you feel caught up with the new edition coming, but nothing good comes from being of feeling overwhelmed. So maybe take your time, so that the overall quality isn't botched...

GCT Master Enos
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"C'mon, it took us 5 seconds reading the cards to see things like"

Maybe you should have said something?  You didn't respond to either of these profiles during playtest or during proof-reading.  If it were so obvious you could have saved us all the bother.

"What bugs me a lot lately is that every wave is plagued with mistakes, erratas, typos, or models that are to be errated ON RELEASE."

There are 2 errors in this Wave 40, there were a further 2 errors in waves 35-39 so you are exaggerating a little.  

The point is we aren't going any faster than previously, no resources have been diverted but we do rely on volunteers to playtest and proofread the new cards.  In these cases the mistakes managed to get through resulting in 4 problems over 36 cards which is not acceptable but really not over average.
I have said many times I think our playtest and proofread volunteers do great work but no system is 100% infalible.

 

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Ret-darkframboisier
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I voiced the mistakes on the silvermoon guy, voiced myself on the minimoto, voiced myself quite a few times actually since the 2 ninjas apprentice, voiced myself on the hail of steel spam, most of the time before release of these references 6 I might actually get known as the 'annoying rambling french dude' ,

In the wave before, we have poorly, overly long and ambiguous wording (the kabuki actor needs a few readings, and even then it's a good thing I took part in its creation - otherwise some of the people here still wouldn't be sure on how he works)

The wording of the Karapan also needed to be explained on the forums because highly ambiguous: they're not mistakes per say, but maybe you would benefit from asking somebody else to put into words your ideas, because most of the time it's long and overly complicated, like scratching your left ear with your right hand and going through the back of your head.

Before that you had design mistakes (a five rice models getting 6 dice and unblockable strike for 4 ki, really? that was intended? I voiced against it at this time again) This could go on.

most of it in vain. And things get sometimes decided so fast that time is lacking, not everybody get to be connectd 24/7 to the forum hanging for every decision, and yes, we don't playtest or watch every single model on the forum before someone get to play them, that's your job.

I stopped taking part because, i the case of hibiki, I felt ignored, and I'm really thinking like what the hell...

I do think the game is turning to shit, our last games left us with the feeling like it's getting actually stupid and pointless, and I do hope somebody at GCT realize at some point the game is going down to major issues before it's to late.

On my side, I have a hard time advocating a game which went from my favourite to something I feel ashamed to have had some people commit to it.

As such, I lack the belief and enthousiasm to be a Ret anymore, and think It's about time I got un-retted. Time for me to move on, a lot a other games are on the ascending, Bushido is in what could be seen as the end of stage 2 of the Rackham experience. We all know what will be to come in 3 -4 years...

that's is for me goodbye

 

 

 

GCT Master Enos
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You left zero feedback posts for:

Hibiki

Ume

Giichi

 

How am I ignoring you?

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Ret-darkframboisier
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OH my god, how full of it can you be? For Haru, during playtesting during pre-release, I gave you feedback (I recall telling that the first draft where she had only 1 trait, 4 hit points and her ki feat costed 3 was FINE), then you changed the card at release,  - we already had some kind of argument about it! Remember? Was it when you suppressed one of my post so now you have no trace of it? I was rambling on how things felt done behinds the Ret's backs... how can you say there were no feedback? because everything in the ret barracks playtest is deleted after release? does it mean you are willfully distorting it or just have the memory of a fish? Could be the latter when the crap on Hibiki is justified by a 'bad cut/paste' (I have the screenshot of this answer, it's so bad it's a collector, if you would happen to deny it) Are you reading the cards before printing them?

For giichi, I don't know if it was me or somebody else, but you've been warned, that's the only thing I can guarantee, you've been told of the typo, yet it had no effect on the retail. Either you didn't listen, or it was too late to change, either way, it's UNPROFESSIONAL!

Your response eludes all the other details implied by my post; it's not just the two typos from last wave, it's the global image with no painter anymore, the mispacks, the out of focus cards, the unclear wording, and the day1 errated / or need-to-be-explained models, etc.. to sum everything up would consume much of my time, and I started not giving a shit anymore. It really feels like talking to a wall. For Hibiki I didn't even bother looking at it - maybe there's a reason to it? and yes It reached one of our friends mailbox, and then it took us a couple of seconds to realize it was broken.

But you can't blame rets for your own mistakes: you're an employee, you're paid for your work, Rets are volunteers, meaning they acts when they feel like it. If you rely on good will and unpaid work to get the job done, then you're better make goddamn sure that people will feel enthousiastic about your project, that includes listening. On the three examples of your post, 1 of them is a lie (Haru, man, I gave feedback quite drasticallly about it - not my fault if you can't remember and posts in playtest get deleted), one is a half-truth (Giichi, can't remeber if it was me or somebody else, but you've been warned!), and yes I didn't gave feedback on Hibiki, because, what the hell, it would have been in pure loss...

I had to respond to this last post, because it's just so wrong, so sophistic, or maybe you do have a memory condition; you shouldn't be invested with ruling responsability in a game then.

Well I had to respond to that, some of our community already are talking to move on to another game, the state of the files I have on the next edition confirms the fact that a game I really liked and invested time into it to make it thrive in our town is dead, to become something unbalanced and poorly written. I'm resigning from ret, and from bushido altogether. If Gordon reads this, and in a few years (it takes a few years to see the impact of some decision on a game) the game is going downhill, I do think we could put up something way better in about 6 months work based on what Master T had created. You'll know where to contact me if interested. If it works, then good for you, it's just not for me anymore. It's turning into a list game, feels like a bad warmachine, and it really starts to feel like it now.

As I said I had to respond to your post, it was so not it, but that's it, consider me gone, there will be nobody left to criticize and challenge your designs, I'm finnaly out of your hair.

 

framboisier out

GCT Master Enos
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For the record, I checked both the threads and the logs for deleted comments for those models.   It is in fact true that you didn't give feedback for any of them.

If it was in the proofreading stage, I can't check those but both play testing and proofreading come with a deadline, if you posted after the proofreading deadline then its true that's just too late.

Also it turned out Ume was fine!  You have said many times that you feel she's overpowered, s did others, but on the whole she has been if anything underplayed.  You were wrong about her, which kind of also shows the pattern.  You aren't being ignored, your dunning-krueger being in full effect you just need to accept that on occasion other opinions are better than yours so I go with those rets ideas.

I will actually be sorry to see you go, I actually gave your comments more weight than most (Which the statistics on changes shows) and invited you to early alpha reading the new edition because you proved your ability to make a point and back it up with data.  I'm sorry not all of your analysis was correct but I think overall your contribution to the game has been positive.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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I think this was a bit of a sad read. No need to publicly bash eachother either really, and some harsh words were spoken. I havn't played Hibiki yet, i thought he looked good but not broken. But you really need to play to have a proper say i guess. Now we're just mates playing here. Should he feel broken, he wont get played often. Much like i didn't play Ikiryo a whole lot before the errata. But thats not a solution for everybody for sure.

 

I love this game as it is. It is my favourite game. I'd hate to see it change too much just for the sake of change. Then again, a new edition coupled with a new starter release could be very big for GCT and maybe what the game needs to take off. But there is much more needed than just that alone. I think the most important thing would be to get the game picked up by distributors. I know that's probobly the main reason why the game isn't picked up by our local store. Also youtube content. I don't know how beast of war selects their games. Do you have to pay for the spotlight maybe? If so, money well spent as that would be huge. And the website including this forum need a major overhaul. Feels very dated.

 

I can't comment on the designing critique by darkframbosier. Not being a ret, i don't know the procedure for designing new minis. I do feel he got a valid point about other things like that there is no longer any painted minis for the new releases. That is sad. Mispacks and such, even tho you get the correct stuff in the end, isn't a good thing either and must cost a small company like gct a lot. Myself, being very swedish, feel almost embarresed to ask for a replacment, like i'm being dishonest, to tell the truth.

 

That said, If there is a new edition looming. Maybe ease down with the new releases. I realize that its an important income for gct, but i would rather have the older models get a resculpt. A few, could get shiny new rules, others just stay the same. I know i wouldn't mind buying new minis to replace models that feel dated and...not so pretty...

 

GCT Master Enos
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I agree, I have tried to be civil here I hope nothing I have said is seen as harsh, its a shame as I say losing someone passionate about the game but let me ease your mind about the issues raised.

The new edition is with retainers now.  There is no change for change sake.  I told them the #1 rule is the game must "Feel like playing Bushido" when it changes and any of them can challenge a rules change and we won't proceed until we're satisfied.

I will be doing a final public beta test of the new edition before print so any issues will hopefully be ironed out during that time (Please note we have announced NO TIMEFRAME yet for the new edition, don't expect anything this week!).  It is mostly a tidying excersise, a bit of streamlining and making the rules consistent, cutting out traits that aren't used or consolidating traits to make fewer memory issues for example.  
Models are mostly the same, 3 factions are being looked at more than others but other than updates most models will play as they did previously.

We can only apologise for mis-packs and I am aware of the inserts not matching the faction of the model...  I don't know how that happens. 
Errors on cards are, in the end, my responsibility of course but the numbers show that errors have reduced over the last year.  What makes it seem different is we are now very active on the forums and facebook to provide clarifications and both myself and RET-Palmer are doing so officially.
More clarifications makes it look like more mistakes but from when I was writing the errata let me tell you, we have improved a lot!

I do know we are talking to professional painters and I hope we will get painted models up as soon as we can, to my knowledge the renders and unpainted models on the store was always temporary.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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