Question on Throw Defense

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FatherKnowsBest's picture
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Question on Throw Defense

"Throw Defence: If the Defence is successful the Attacker is moved D2” within LoS of the Defender, and becomes Prone."

 

Last night I had one of my ninja thrown using this.  I didn't roll any attack dice, opting to simply try and bog down my opponent.  He told me that because of this wording, he got to do it because his defense was successful because I didn't roll attack dice.

Was this done wrong or right?

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He has successfully defended, yes - as long as he rolled any number of defence dice and they weren't 1's... Tiebreakers can come into effect if no one rolls any dice for part of a melee exchange.

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Notice that this is the case for all SD's except CAD. E.g. you can neither escape a Drag Defense by going full parry dice pool.

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Ret-A_Palmer wrote:

He has successfully defended, yes - as long as he rolled any number of defence dice and they weren't 1's... Tiebreakers can come into effect if no one rolls any dice for part of a melee exchange.

 

Hmm... this is the third time this has come up in as many days.

Page 14 of the online rulebook, melee exchanges, step 6, you pick the highest dice and add up to two dice that are not 1's... so a roll of three 1's is a result of one, because thats the highest dice. The other two 1's are ignored.

Step 6a reminds us that no dice = result of 0

So yes, this was resolved correctly because by putting no dice into attack you scored zero. By putting at least 1 dice in defence the minimum score is 1... ergo a successful defence. 

Traits like Parry and Brutal add to the highest dice, so if you didn't roll any defence dice with Master Araki you can't call a result of 2, its still a 0. (Araki has Parry 2).

 

Cheers
AdvanceOp

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Are you sure on your first point?  In the rule book in the first paragraph under the page headed 'Tests' the rules say any 1 counts as a failure so three 1's in Melee is zero.  The fact the rules say any additional two dice as 1s are not counted doesn't mean it supercedes the 1 rule for the first dice. 

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Re-reading the rules, I would second Ashley, it's clearly said that every natural 1 is a failure, and ranged & melee only states that you can add up to 2 non-one dice to add to your original score, which is a failure if is was a 1...

So triple 1 on a melee or ranged attack still is zero...

So I guess it means that in a melee exchange, if a guy puts no dice in offense, the other gets a  triple 1 in defense, it all comes down to who the active player: if it's the guy wo put no dice in attack , nothing happens, if it's the guy who tried the special défense, then the special defense succeeds

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Yes you guys are right. Page 10 says all 1s are a fail. My bad... now I have to go tell a dozen people the right way to play blush

Cheers
AdvanceOp

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Urgh... never respond to forums when you are rushing out the door to work.

Ok, heres the logic. Tests on p10 talk about 6s adding +1, so I have considered that whole paragraph to refer to oppossed ki tests and the like.. same goes for target tests. These are for punji traps and water walls.

Melee and Ranged have their own sequence, which talks about +1 for up to two dice, and +2 for additioanl sixes. It says ones do not add, but doesnt say anything about 1s being and autofail always. 

Might be worth a faq or GCT intervetion here.

Cheers
AdvanceOp

Ret-MattT's picture
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Looking at the rules in Melee I agree that there´s unfortunate wording.

As AdvanceOp says it seems to say that you would toss any extra 1´s rolled, but this is merely a reminder to use the normal rules of 1´s not being used to measure Success Level imho. Looking at the section for tests it says that the Primary tests are Opposed and Target, meaning there´s room for more variants. Reading it as RAW, a roll of 1,1,1 would net a result of 1, which I don´t think is the case since that would change the whole dice mechanism of the game where 1´s are always discarded.

Incidently Ranged Attacks use the same wording.

The Eagle shares the nest. The Dragon burns it. Join the Black Eagle and crush the usurpers!
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the +1 to melee & ranged attack counts only if they are not 1. If they are 1, they don't even count in the number of dice rolled for the tiebreaker count (it's as if this dice never existed).

Then, in a prior rule, all dice rolling 1 are considered failures, ergo, this rules being prior, and the meléé & ranged doesn't change this rule, it just adds up the possibility of keep 2 extra non-1 dice to your final score, I think the final outcome is clear, but I understand your confusion, had the same trouble with the book, some rules are at a certain page, them complementary rules are at another, but all in all, must of the info is really there.

If you apply the steps and go through sequence carefully, Bushido is the game where I found the less litigious cases of all the mini I game I've played (Warhammer FB being the top in the matter of litigious cases where nobody could decide how to resolve...)

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hmmmm.... locally we've been playing since the games release, so entirely possible we are mixing "editions" :( 

I've always intepreted Melee & Opposed Test as similar but different mechanics as they have different modfiers and result bonuses. Same for Ranged.

If I am intepreting correctly what you guys are saying is there should be a melee step

5a - Discard all dice that have a result of 1

and Ranged Step

2b(i) - Discard all dice that have a result of 1

... then you add up to 2 dice adding +1, or +2 if they are 6's, etc.

Also, if the results of combat are tied, the player who has the most dice remaining wins?

 

Examples!

Example 1: Attacker gets 4,3 on the dice and is using Unblockable Strike. The Defender gets 5,6,1 on their dice. The defenders 1 is discarded (because its a 1) the 6 gets discarded (Unblockable Strike) leaving a result of Attacker 4+1 = 5 vs Defender 5 means Attacker wins because they have more dice remaining?

 

Example 2: Attacker gets 4,3,4 on the dice. The Defender gets 4,2,1,3,3 on their dice. The defenders 1 is discarded (because its a 1) leaving a result of Attacker 4+1+1 = 6 vs Defender 4+1+1 = 6 means defender wins because they have more dice remaining (4 dice)?

.... but if the defender had rolled 4,2,1,3,1 they would lose (same number of dice remaining) if the attacker is the active player but win if the defender was the active player?

 

Example 3: The Attacker rolls 1 dice and gets a 2. The Defender has Parry (2) and rolls three dice and gets all 1's*. The defender is considered to have rolled no defence dice so Parry doesn't work and thus has a melee result of 0. The Attacker wins with Success level of 2?

 

*I kid you not this happened to me three times in one game on the weekend!!!

Cheers
AdvanceOp

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The intention of the rule is that all 1's roll are discarded and cannot to used, meaning that the score for that models test would be 0. 

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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Hum I guess your 3 examples are correct, from what I understand, anf thanks Master T for the clarification, I understood it like you said, but I guess it comes from old Confrontation habits, which used the same rule of discardable 1s.

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Thanks Master T. Changes a few things in my head but thats ok. I'd rather be playing right!

Cheers
AdvanceOp

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I think the outcomes of all three examples are correct but in the case of 1 and 2 we've always played that if the success level is zero then the attacker always rolls on the damage table as a success level of zero but (and I think you are right) that if the defender rolled more dice( none 1s) then he wins and no attack takes place?

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I guess so Ashley, the Order of Tiebreakers is number of Dice rolled, and only if they're the same you check who the active player is, but in this case, it means everybody rolled 1s or put no dice, which goes back to the same -> ergo, the active player still wins.

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