Rules Change for MASTERS

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GCT Master Enos
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Rules Change for MASTERS

Hi guys,
Well I wanted to see if the new Ranged Attack sequence from the last errata fixed everything (It does)  before I changed anything but those nija have been killing 12 models per turn for too long!

These 2 changes are effective immediately and will be used for the Masters at UK Games Expo.  They will be included in the errata after masters (The usual annual errata).
I just want to assure players that there will be no other errata (Unless something horrendous is discovered!) until next year.  I know we had 2 this year already but thats not the norm.

 

Ranged Attack Modifiers

+1 Per Ranged Attack already made by the active model this Turn.

This helps with Hail of Steel but also tones down Sanjakubo's 4 stuns per turn, Wasapu and co. crossbows and models with feats to reload shooting twice in a turn (Especially Kahime).

 

Also, a minor unintended issue with disguise was missed from the last errata, its enough to warrant a change now:

A Disguised model has no ZoC, and Enemy models with a Ki Statistic of 1 or less cannot Target, or voluntarily move into BtB, with it.
Enemy models with a Ki Statistic of 2 or more may do so only by succeeding in an Opposed Ki test against this model. Determine whether the effect targeting the model is in range, or the Enemy model can reach BtB, before attempting this test.
If the Enemy model is successful, remove the Disguised state, and resolve the action as normal. If it is unsuccessful, its activation ends, and its condition worsens.

If a Disguised model declares a Melee, Ranged Attack, Charge, or Scenario action, or participates in a Melee Exchange, remove its Disguise marker. 

Now i am leaving the soulless + disguised combo for now but I am watching it.  As they can't perform Scenario actions, I feel I can let the ninjas have their unpenetrable disguise.

A couple of clarifications too:
If a Disguised, Soulless model is targetted by a Soulless model, the disguise will break and the attack goes ahead.

Master Enos must choose to do damage with Divert Energy to apply Spirit Block.  Stealing Ki will not apply a Spirit Block Marker.

 

 

As always let me know what you think and commant below or in the Battle Report forums with your experiences.

Damon Carlton
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Ok. I've read and re -read your post. Plus one modifier to hit per ranged attack per turn. That's harsh. So a ninja uses HoS then on his/her second activation that makes a plus 3 to hit!!! Per activation maybe but not per turn.

Also all those models with Ki feats allowing a quick reload maybe these should be reduced in cost by 1 as it is now less effective???

Personally a restriction on how many HoS feats would be better and wasapu's Ki feat changed to activation rather than turn would have been better.

I'm glad that I haven't purchased a ryu model now as these rules now make him defunct.

Disguise models now not allowed to make scenario actions. Not sure I agree tbf. I'd like to know your thinking on this.......
it is,what it is though

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Da Gobbo's Grotto
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I like the disguise change even though I'm a STS player with Tsubaki. To influence scenario play while in disguise is too powerful, especially a soulless disguise! Good change

the +1 mod is a compromise to discourage HoS spam as I guess it represents rushed shots and lets face it Wasupu is underpriced in the old rules. You're just pissed cos you're a ninja player! ;-)

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Axiam
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I get the soulless disguise ruling, and I'm happy it's not what was play tested, as for me i think ninjas need to be able to stretch opponents thin to be able to achieve objectives. Opponents know they can hem in all your models with their extra activations, which makes it impossible to achieve anything without some guaranteed ways of making up ground across the board.

I'm with Damon on the range attack nerf however, I agree that rapid fire is maybe too strong to allow multiple uses in a turn but the proposed changes seem very targeted against the ninjas as the only models able to rapid fire 3. KKZ already have a lot to contend with, considering how often you face extra activation overload from opponents, that it seems a bit over the top to target just them with the -2/3 to hit per turn, on their main method of dealing damage without losing all their activations to hth. Considering how hard it already is to achieve scenario objectives against a high model count warband it is going to be very difficult to find ways to counter what the other clans can put out now for the same rice, especially with some of the over powered against KKZ Events and Traits that exist.

I like a challenge, which is why I started with ninjas as my first faction, and I'm not considered a bad player by my opponents, but HoS was always something I'd try to use to take down the over powered enemy models that would wipe me in combat- because I can't swarm them or distract them with chod (such as wraith or itsunagi ito) - or as a way to thin the herd so I have the occasional free model to do scenario actions with. However now, considering how hard it already was to deal damage against models at target level 4/5 with -2 str, I probably won't be wasting my ki on HoS as statiscally only the first shot is likely to do useful damage. I guess this means more distraction and prediction use, assuming it's still worth taking Bikou and Kouhei, over the other options when their hth skills aren't overly strong. Having played a tournament as KKZ with no ranged attacks, and getting beat pretty heavily in 3 out of four rounds (one round was against an inexperienced player), this total nerf change of a balancing ki feat is troubling.

I agree however, that a list should not allow 3-4 HoS uses per turn, as that would be total over kill against some lists (and probably very weak against others). It is true that some range combinations can be overly powerful (repeater crossbows seem very strong with +1 str, no reload, good range and armour piercing) so a global hinderence should exist, but at the total expense of a ki feat that has been fairly critical in many of my games at helping to avoid a white wash, and has occasionally swung a game in my favour, on those scenarios that are massively tilted towards the player with the most activations/models?

Axiam

Ret-darkframboisier
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Tested it several times, the nerf is fine: only -1, the damage output is still very good. Instead of killing a model with one HoS, you'll generally an extra activation to finish it off, but you still can expect 4,5 damage on it on average.

The nerf is also here to reduce the power of Raijin's rage spam, and limit the 5 stun a turn lisrt in tengu or with matsu takashi: but you still can expect to put around 3, which is already very very good, maybe still too much not to take these models.

Gave a more fair feel to shots to my opinion.

Damon Carlton
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I agree Adam. Your more articulate than i am. As da gobbo knows KKZ was my first faction and he knows I'm dying to try out my Ryu next so being a KKZ player isn't why I'm protesting.

KKZ without a ranged advantage is not as appealing as many other factions can easily overpower them now as your already low on model count and ninja's are quite fragile in combat.

Me and Andy will obviously play using these rules and see the affect it causes. But at face value it seems extreme as mine and Andy's battles are always so close. So I can see me notching up a few losses. As I wont be using HoS at medium or long range anymore. The third shot will always be a waste at it won't be possible to cause damage.

I also thought you may have changed the rules that rapid fire can only be used against the same model.

I only won that tournament with KKZ because all my opponents didn't use cover and stayed in the open. Unlike Andy who I play against my game against both Simon and jack would have gone so differently if they used cover in they're games.

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Damon Carlton
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I have to ask ret dark, Did the games in which you play tested the models being shot use cover at all??

Also I bought buzenbo, not sure it was a good purchase now....

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GCT Master Enos
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Ninjas were never supposed to be removing 4 models on turn 2 with shurikens.
They are supposed to be outnumbered and they are supposed to use melee..

To kill models with shurikens now you need to have 2 models, maybe distraction, maybe a kusari then HoS.  
Most Shuriken shots started needing 2, if the third one needing 5 is too high to cause damage, you use a blind bomb or similar.  
Again, remember it was not the intent for HoS to kill models in one activation, thats obviously a bit too good.

We tested this and almost all reports back were happy, so I'd say try it in a game.  We had a lesser version to begin with and it simply wasn't enough, HoS still kills a model at close range (And why would you not be at close range?) in fact it was trivial to add another debuff and still need 2 as target number.  It fixed nothing.

If your issue is that HoS or Wasupu can't kill multiple enemy models per turn with no real chance of retaliation, well thats what this fixes.  It means HoS is a good tool, but you may not want 4 as you likely have to get in melee to kill things.  This is how it should be.

 

There is no real way to limit the instances of HoS per list (Comp is universally bad) or limit uses per turn (Its across 4 models!) and to be honest, this would solve nothing.  Bikou was around long before KKZ as a faction and was the reason for the last big Ranged change along with Manuro.  

Other suggestions also do nothing to stop the "Stunned-spam" from Raijins rage models.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Damon Carlton
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Thank you for your reply. Your far wiser than me. Hopefully I'll get a game in by the end of this month. See how this plays.

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Ret-darkframboisier
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I'll double what master Enos said:

we obiously tried to use cover, but ninjas are very mobile, and most of our previous games, the goal was to come in short range, sometimes us distract and Kusari (you could get a TN of 2 for your ranged attacks), and it was very easy this to move in order to cancel the aformentionned cover.

Now it's less about damage, more about playing cleverly: you usually go for damage on the 2 first shot, then, as master enos says, you kusari, bomb, or something else with the last shot.

You still have a 4,5 damage output on the whole thing, meaning you can one shot if you get lucky. What matters now is the order in which you get lucky: having a high roll on the first shot is deadly, having it on your last roll will smoothen the damage curve of the skill.

Damn people 4,5 damage instead of 6 damage for a 2 ki feat, isn't that good enough? And you still have the psychological impact: it still can kill in one go, you just need to get luckier than before, meaning you opponent will have to move carefully. But before the nerf, shuriken to death was pretty much the answer to anything, no match-up, no counter, just hail of steel stupidly. Now, it's still very strong and useful, you just have to think of the whens and hows to use it, and not only do that...

Thankfully, most ninjas kick ass in melee too...

GCT Master Enos
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If you get another model to use distraction before hand you still usually kill a 6 wound model with no toughness.

Deffinately play it, of course its weaker but for the Rice cost of the models and the 2Ki feat I think this is good.  If not then we'll take a look before printing the errata.

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Axiam
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How competitive were the ninjas during testing? We're they still able to compete for objectives and secure vps on scenery objective based missions?

Axiam

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I almost won even with really crappy dice rolls against a 42 points tengu list (the same list that won on recent tourney, but I can't give you the details, it was whogshrog's list) and a rather solid Jung List (Black sail with Yuji, Minato, the Buto, 2 small guys and a sixth guy I forgot about). In both cases, most of my rolls never rose higher than 4; a lot of ones, and still, almost won the 1st game, and I stayed in the second game for a fair time. With an average dice-rolling thoughout the game, it would have been a victory.

So far I'm convinced by the errata: it's still strong, but it's forces you to vary what you do during the game, and discourage to just spamm HoS. If you consider other models like Wasupu (my first army is silvermoon), well, it means he deals 1 damage less on average, but most of the time he was overkill... and as a friend said, Kaihime rarely has the occasion of doing 2 shots in a round, a clever opponent will not let her...

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I'll be on hilday by the end of the week: i'll give some more testing to it then

Ret-Fleafa
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I am generally a fan of the changes. Are they perfect? Well, no, but rules never are. Are they better than before in terms of the meta? I think very much so.

Change always gets people worried. Let's play with these changes and adapt to them. They provide KKZ players especially with a new opportunity, which we have whenever new models or rules are released; that of discovery. The challenge is now to find new and more interesting ways to maximise the effectiveness of the KKZ.

Atrus
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GCT Master Enos wrote:

I just want to assure players that there will be no other errata (Unless something horrendous is discovered!) until next year. 

http://www.bushido-thegame.com/forum/atrus-831-1

This is horrendous enough? Unless we are understanding something wrong... It more or less kills Held status from the game.

 

Liked the changes overall. Wasupu has a nightmare in most games of Bushido since STS came out. And bikou and co eating Samurai for breakfast was not a good thing. Still possible, but harder and limited. Still need to try the changes though.

Disguised and objectives is also very good, ninjas, roses and yama uba can't play alone on the field against certain lists.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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GCT Master Enos
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That will also go in the post-masters errata.  I replied in that thread.

We don't plan on issuing more after that until next year.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Atrus
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wow, you are fast :)

Nice. Problem solved!

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Hi Enos, when you update held can you please also update lay makibishi to be in line? Currently ranged attacks and ki feat moves can ignore the caltrops so as it follows the same rule line as held it would be nice for this to be updated too. Thanks,

Axiam

GCT Master Enos
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I only have the KKZ Lay Makibishi card but it uses "Moves into or starts a movement" this does cover ranged and Ki feats though I admit its not clear.  For clarification, these require a Target test (5) for the walk part.

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GCT Master Enos
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Note Ki Feats and Ranged say they can perform a walk "As if it had performed a walk action".
The issue only comes from declaring actions.

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Ret-MattT
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As Enos said are Ninjas not playing as intended and in an easy mode with the current shooting rules. KKZ are supposed to be like Temple without the cheap stuff, but more tricks and sneakiness. 

I would even say that KKZ didn´t play Bushido right. It´s about positioning and strategizing  correctly. Instead they just Rapid Fires Bolters... It´s not their fault as STS are in that area with Wasapu and Ruy were there with Bikou and Minuro before. That also led to changes.

If we wanted a game of 'kill'em all asap' there´s a hundred out there to pick from. In Bushido we have a ton of rules pertaining to fighting, but winning the game has little to do with it. That´s the beauty of the system imho.

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