Bikou, op ?

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Joueur 1156's picture
Joueur 1156
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Bikou, op ?

Hi,

I'm playing prefecture, and I enjoy playing bikou. But, he seems to be really overpowered.

If she can sneak himself behing an enemy, being at short range, and using rapidfire(3), he will have 90% of chance to do 9 damage ! That's huge !  And if the target is not surprised, it's just 75% of chance to do this 9 damage.

I made a little programm to compute that. If you don't believe me, just roll three dice. I made 5 try, shortrange, not surprised, rapidefire(3) and obtained : 9, 7, 12, 15, 13 damage.

Hence, bikou can be at 8' from a mini, move up to 5', and then be almost sure to oneshoot this mini. But she can defend herself with 3 dice, dodge(1), side step defence(0).

Am I making a mistake ?

Malhorme's picture
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And you are forgetting the side step defense, which with dodge and 3 dice means she's more than able to avoid melee against most foes, a part from the most dangerous.

Personally, playing as temple, i fear bikou much more than Hiro or Hagane... And far more than Hanso!

Bikou is hard to spot, with the camouflage, which means that I have to get close. As she can (and does) one shoot most of my miniatures (actually, everybody apart Po, Yumi and Ekusa, meannig I have to send two or more minis on her, with high chances that both will end up dead.

Last time I played Bikou, i got Aiko, one monkey, Koji escaped thanks to very unlucky dices (1,1,2), and killed Riu. So that's 4 +1 + 8 alone, and she escaped Po thanks to a timely healing....

....

Oh, and she is elusive.

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The OP isn't Bikou per se. Are the ranged attacks, that are ridiculous OP. With arquebusier is also the same, at short range against a Large model I can kill the model in one hit. And Araka corpses in short range also OP (+ strong)...  and Matsu too, allways move+fire at short range with slam or bonus to strenght (at 6 rice).

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Joueur 1156's picture
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Yeah, but Bikou can move + 3 shots. That's way more op than only one shot.

And the arquebusier cannot move near the ennemy like bikou.  And cannot shot every turn... And isn't sure to one shoot a mini...

Their is a difference of op-ness...

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@Atrus I would encourage you to try her, on board. At first I also found her shooting dom to be low, so not really a worry. Ohhh crap. The camouflage alows her to approch safely. The combination of elusive (matsu has not) + light footed (matsu has not) + 3 shoots for 2 ki each turn is deadly. Mastu is fragile, bikou is not Minuro can not move and shoot, bikou can Bikou has no reload, minuro has.... Soooo easy to get behind a mini and shoot it (she is assassin, remember, so uses 3 dices for dom, keeps the 2 best....).

 

Edit : Bikou has 3 in Shoot.

A short, she has to reach 3+, 2+ if surprised.

Average score on 3 dices gives 7, so a success level of 3 or 4...

With an average role on the dom table of 7, with the minus 2, that gives 2 or 3 wounds.

With assassin, it is higher...

3 shoots per turn, gives 6 wounds... or more than 9 if surprised.... more than enought to kill anybody.

Atrus's picture
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I know I know. Fucking ninjas... xD Im painting Bikou right now, I will try her next game.

With the temple, maybe you can run with Kitsune to Kill her fast? More easy to say than to do but lets try... :s 

And with minuro, activating him last in the turn, and with the tactic from Hanso to start the turn first, is easy to get closer to an enemy and shoot at short range. And if the model is also Large is more damage. In our table arquebusier deals insane damage for a 5 points model.

I will try Bikou for compare the Opness xD ...that 3 shurikens... >_<

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Against Kistun, bikou will have easy time: she moves faster, and will use all in defense, plus side step defense and dodge. They both have 3 CP...

By the way, Question:
If bikou fires on Kitsun using rapide fire 3, and kitsun uses Mirage, how many ki and test does she have to try?
One time mirage will cover all 3 shoots, or mirage can only avoid one shoot.
I'm confused, as the shoots are separated, and could be on different targets..

Yes, minuro can get high dom, but he reaches the max of the dom table fast. What i mean is that for a given SL of 4, you can check that 1 time +4 is not as good as 3 times -2... (as minuro will do max 6dom, whereas bikou could get higher... The averagef values are pretty much the same ...

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Unless bikou's enemy has tough or armour, in which case minuro is the better pick, or against multiple low wound models where one bikou shot is unlikely to instant kill, or against models with sixth sense who charge bikou and punch her in the face, or well, you get my point.... if a model seems overpowered in one area they are usually deficit in another, which is why math-hammer can be misleading, and the bikou trick might work once, but if you can surprise your opponent that often I suggest you find a better opponent:)

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If your opponent is struggling against Bikou and is a Temple player i might suggest they look at Sixth Sense and models that might come with or grant that ability?

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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This is indeed the way I manage it. Koji's pack + po is a good way. I also use fire iami plus koji's pack...
However, i feel we have not been very clear at the begining of the topic, sorry for that.
We where not wanting to say we had no solution to handel her, we wanted to say we found her too much powerfull.
The solution of Koji's pack means you have to anticipate it in your army list, and choose specific units to manage her. i'm always disturbed by miniature that need dedicated minatures to be handle.
But if this is assumed and wanted (the highest dom + the specific miniatures to handel her) then there is nothin nothing to add.
Thanks anyway for this constructive answer.

BtW: what about mirage Vs rapid fire?
Can bikou start with one shoot on kitsun, if she does mirage then throw the two others on another target?

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@Greeny : bikou has armor piercing.

I agree with Malhorme : if a list against one another has won before the game, it's disturbing. I mean : if you have to take koji to counter bikou, kami to counter mizuchi etc... How can you make your list vs a blind list ?

And even with sixth sens, bikou can still escape and then make another shot from short range. But yes, it's the better solution.

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Didn't spot that, cheers! (shuriken being so utterly rubbish in reality I didn't expect it!) piercing won't help vs tough, or shisa for that matter, for me I find the board is so small that camouflage and ranged attacks are really only effective once or twice in a game, so I've never struggled against bikou, I've always found her an easy splat if i'm honest:) I've yet to find any "this list will always beat that list" situations in bushido, (though a poorly written list can always lose, take the all bakemono horde I used last night for instance...)

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That surprising, I find camouflage very very usefull.

Our table is full of covers (you can find it here http://www.bushido-thegame.com/forum/malhorme-139 ) and as Bikou moves at 5", she can start end on turn in cover at a bulding corner, and be deadly for a miniature a 8" of it. Usually, she get hold when a big fighter make a long range charge after starting his turn close to a monkey...

 

 

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thats why this sort of discussion is good, different people, different tactics:) I can imagine that table being easier to gain cover on, but isn't it also harder to draw LoS on your opponent? My experience of Bikou is just to walk/run(shuffle) toward her postion with multiple models, closing her maneuvrablity down and then smashing her as soon as she makes a move, or otherwise letting her leap out and throw stars, accepting the damage (usually minimal, I've yet to see her kill anything bigger than a bakemono) then using the geisha/Araka etc to blast her apart with the next action.  

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You raise a good point. For bikou it is ok, but minuro suffers to find LoS. As bikou is short range, it is easy to find place for a shoot.

For the close up on bikou That is strange... Did your opponent forget "elusive"? I can hardly see how one could corner bikou with a karai. She moves faster, ignore ZoCs and ultimately can prone them to escape.
But it is trhough i did not try her against cult. Have to test that.

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Malhorme wrote:

BtW: what about mirage Vs rapid fire? Can bikou start with one shoot on kitsun, if she does mirage then throw the two others on another target?

Could you please ask this in the Rules questions section so that if others want to know the answer they will be able to find it easily. 

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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elusive is complety useless for running away, there isn't a model in the game that can't catch you if you try and run straight through its ZoC, it's really more of an aggressive skill, allowing you to pick your fights. closing bikou down with two models isn't hard as long as you have two models that can take the pain, I used to use Kairai as she couldn't kill/prone/dodge them both in one action, (one of the many reasons why I love bushido, taking actions in turn one at a time is a great tactical challenge) but with new dawn removing the ability to charge from slow models I've had to look elsewhere, last time i was lucky enough to have both my large rat swarms, poor bikou never had a chance... (admittedly that was 12 Rice vs 9 so hardly a fair fight)

Isak
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Is Bikou, op ?

I would simply say yes, imagine if Bikou was a ally available to every fraction, then probebly every competative list would have a Bikou in it. 

And if you have problems with enemy models harassing Bikou get Tenchi to babysit the shuriken catapult.

Fix/house rule for Bikou? I think ammo(4-5) should fix it, still deadly but not turn after turn.

 

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To be fair I don't take Bikou very often, but when I have (admitedly not recently) she hasn't done what I'd consider her points worth, so she's a riskier investment than running good old reliable samurai/tenchi in that point's bracket.

Might just be poor luck, not enough experience with her or tough opponents; but I either way I wouldn't say she needs a fix as I don't consider her overpowered.  Her shurikens are nice and if you can suprise she shines but the -2 str and the fact people can still just walk up to her to engage mean she's fairly straight forward to counter if you have a tough/fast enough model.  She doesn't have armour and only 5 wounds make her fairly squishy if you can hit her.

Will have to give her a try more often to see how she compares more recently given there's been quite a few new characters since I used her last. 

While I'm on the subject, what's happened to the other Prefecture ninja that was going around?  Bikou getting a buddy soon?

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Greeny's picture
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sixth sense- get the bat/nian or Tengu for the temple,etc, soons scares her off:)

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I think she is a bit like Ikiryo.

You can't ignore her, and you need to know how to take care of her.

But as soon as you've got that she isn't that bad.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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Greeny wrote:

sixth sense- get the bat/nian or Tengu for the temple,etc, soons scares her off:)

 

And factions without sixth sense? Got any tips for them that doesn´t involve half the warband getting torn to teeny tiny shreds? :)

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Atrus's picture
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And she still has 3 dice + dodge + side step so.... you prone her or youre dead at close range.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Malhorme's picture
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Well! Things have changed recently, didn't them?

The suriken are far less dangerous now, as they lost 1 SL (range difficulty being 4/5/6)...

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And there's no longer an advantage to shooting at Exhausted targets.

Also, Camouflage is more reasonable.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Atrus's picture
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Yes. Ranged attacks are too nerfed now. Im going to open a new topic about.

Still this models is usefull against monkeys, rats, dealing some damage to armored targets, or using the Kusari to Prone enemies.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
Welcome to the Oriental-Fantasy-Fusion Game.
http://thetempleofbushido.wordpress.com

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