Help me ... I'm a noob

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mrmccook
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Help me ... I'm a noob

Got to say love the models and the game. Rules take a while to get used to coming from other game types but this forum and the quick responses I've seen from the team and community are great and unsurpassed anywhere else I have seen - thanks everyone!

Sorry if this is a series of long drawn out questions but had my first part-game (ran out of time) yesterday (Temple Vs Savage Wave) ... ouch ... those big red beasts can sure hurt - yes I'm Temple!!

So as a result (and as I have my next games lined up for the coming Friday/Saturday with more time to actually complete some proper games - yay!) then I have some questions that I need help understanding:

1.) If a model is in an Exhausted Condition it says in rules "and suffers -1MS" but also in a Melee exchange if an opponent is Exhausted it also has a -1MS modifier. Are these two cummulative? i.e. Bobata MS =3 so if Exhausted and then in Melee then is he MS 2 or MS 1?

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2.) In Melee (section 4) it seems to state you can ask your opponent to re-roll their dice results (which if he rolls lots of 6's I can understand you would want to do) and then after the re-roll they can ask you do do the same? If that is the case how do you determine which/how many dice you can ask to be re-rolled? As many/as few as you like?

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3.) I think I have read that a model being reduced to 0 wounds in Melee by a model who has the initiative doesn't get to resolve it's attacks and so just gets removed?

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4.) An example of a fight I seemed to lose terribly is as below:

Bobabta charged Po. Po decided to attempt a side step defence.

Bobata rolled 4 dice (all in attack) and scored 9 in attack, 0 in defence.

Po rolled 6 dice (4 in attack and 2 in defence) scoring 5 in attack and 2 in defence. (can anyone else feel my pain at this point!?)

Bobata's success was 7

Po failed to defend the attack and so - as I understand - failed the side step special defence?

On the damage roll Bobata scored 12(!) so dealt Po 10 wounds - ouch he's dead! Oh no!

We played it wrong I think but I then resolved Po's attacks against Bobata before removing Po as a casualty taking a mere 4 wounds of Bobata in reply! I think NOW reading what I have that Po would just have been squished by Bobata, bye bye Po, sayonara!

My understanding of playing it that way was if someone tried to charge me I'm not going to just stand there and let them ... even if I die I am going to get some blows in there! Wrong it maybe in these game terms because I think it's staggered, yes?

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Hi- I'll have a crack at these as I seem to have got in before henrix for a change!

1.) If a model is in an Exhausted Condition it says in rules "and suffers -1MS" but also in a Melee exchange if an opponent is Exhausted it also has a -1MS modifier. Are these two cummulative? i.e. Bobata MS =3 so if Exhausted and then in Melee then is he MS 2 or MS 1?

its just -1, the repeat in the Melee exchange is just to remind you:)

2.) In Melee (section 4) it seems to state you can ask your opponent to re-roll their dice results (which if he rolls lots of 6's I can understand you would want to do) and then after the re-roll they can ask you do do the same? If that is the case how do you determine which/how many dice you can ask to be re-rolled? As many/as few as you like?

The amount of dice you can re-roll is stated in the ability that grants a re-roll such as martial prowess or dodge, this section in the melee exchange is just so so you have the timing for those, otherwise it's no re-rolls.

3.) I think I have read that a model being reduced to 0 wounds in Melee by a model who has the initiative doesn't get to resolve it's attacks and so just gets removed?

thats right, unless they have the 'Last stand' trait.

 

4.) An example of a fight I seemed to lose terribly is as below:

My understanding of playing it that way was if someone tried to charge me I'm not going to just stand there and let them ... even if I die I am going to get some blows in there! Wrong it maybe in these game terms because I think it's staggered, yes?

yep, fighting is staggered not simultaneous, some traits can effect this (first strike, slow etc) as a general rule if Bobata or Zuba charge you its good to defend! master Po is slow, so he will almost always defend first and attack second.

Hope you enjoyed your first semi-game, and the next one goes better for you!

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Many thanks. I think Ret-Henrix might have stepped away from the computer for a few seconds - maybe a coffee or something!? hence you beat him here! Either one of you replying is great!

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Thanks for replying. That's great, much appreciated and clears a few things up. 

So as for re-rolls of any dice then normally, unless you have a trait or special ability you can ignore this and move on?

So as a rule is avoiding being charged by a big red monster from Savage Wave simply recommended!?

:)

Anyone wish to part with me any tips or tricks when using Temple and who is better and recommended against an opponent like Savage Wave?

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BTW - Yes, loved the 1st proper game. Looking forward to playing the next few this month ... before becoming a sacraficial lamb at JWardiff next month! At least have a better understanding of rules and flow of game now. Many thanks.

Henrix
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I don't live my entire life in front of the computer. Well, not wholly entirely, at least. blush

I'll just add a couple of extra commentaries.

3) It's in step 9. "If this results in either the Defender model
being removed from the table, no longer being in BtB
with the Attacker or becoming Prone" the Defender cannot fight back.

mrmccook wrote:

So as for re-rolls of any dice then normally, unless you have a trait or special ability you can ignore this and move on?

Yes. Dodge, Feint and Martial Prowess are probably the most common traits causing rerolls.

I've actually had a few questions about just that. A short explanation that this only happens if there are special conditions that apply  could have been handy.

mrmccook wrote:

So as a rule is avoiding being charged by a big red monster from Savage Wave simply recommended!?

Yes, and no. If they really Charge into you that can be a good thing, as it leaves them Exhausted. It's worse if the can catch you with a Melee action.

In the first exchange, when they strike first, it can be good to be defensive. (But not always all out - you want to keep them on their toes so that they spend something on defence.)
And then hit them back, preferably outnumbered.

As for monk tactics against the Wave, well, Yumi can be very good using her Flow Like Water (Dodge & Counterattack Defence). Sweeps, Slams and Throws are also golden.

Sidestep Defence is best if you cannot get support, strike first, and don't want  to be locked in Melee.

If they have a lot of bakemonos it is valuable to go after them so that they do not procreate so much.

Mr. Ekusa is excellent against the big onis. Exhausting on of them before they do anything, or when in Melee (remember that they are visible over the monks) can win half the battle - and you can concentrate on the pesky small dudes.

Shisa are nice if you can occupy an Oni with. It doesn't matter how Strong they are, they only take one wound.

Greeny wrote:

master Po is slow, so he will almost always defend first and attack second.

I believe you are thinking about Mr. Ekusa. Mr. Po isn't that slow. wink

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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doh! half awake today;)

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Thanks Henrix. Even if Greeny was half awake his reply was much appreciated ... as are yours! 

I can relate to spending lots of my life in front of a computer ... you are not alone! I do mine for a living! 

So - if I had read the rules in their entirety I would have come to step 9 in Melee! Doh!

Agree that the section of the rules does need to be amended to reflect " this only happens if there are special conditions that apply"

Interesting about Yumi, Shisa and Mr Ekusa. I will try some of these in combinations to see what works best for me.

Are you not going to JWardiff? It would be good to download your brain whilst distracting you by plying you with alcohol. cheeky

Yes, you are a Bushi indeed!

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mrmccook wrote:

Yes, you are a Bushi indeed!

Thank you!

 

And Jwardiff is a bit off my beaten track. It's not that close to Sweden, after all. indecision

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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That's a shame. Maybe one day in Europe or Sweden itself then!?!

Your input is invaluable so thanks for everything and keep the quick replies and help coming ... I'm going to need it!

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Hello Greeny and Henrix

please can you stop giving the Ape tips on how best to beat the Oni and if you would be so kind to give me a few tips on the Brutal Savage Wave reading the above posts I did read something about charging I thought that even if you are within walking range of the enemy it is still better to charge but this your saying would not be a good idea because of being left exhausted what other tips could you throw my way 

At the moment  Iam running Zuba Waka Bobabta and ushi

I have 6 bakemono and Wuzang and trapeng and Kano

Cheers Gazza

 

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Charge is a tricky thing in Bushido. In almostall cases it is better to go in with a Melee action.

 Sometimes you want to get in a long distance Charge, or get a Chargin Bonus if the model has that (like Zuba).

Charging is a Complex action so you only get in one melee exchange, while with Melee you get in two.

I've seen many new wave players charge in with their oni and leave them Exhausted and alone surrounded by fresher enemies, ready to be surrounded.

You should always try to avoid getting surrounded - they're too expensive for that. Use your bakemonos to keep your foes of the onis back.

Use bakemonos to outmanouvre the enemy. You'll probably have more activations, which means you can wait and get the enemy where you want them, and still have activations to complete the scenario objectives.

Call as many bakemono forward as you can, and concentrate on the objectives. It can be worth focusing with a bakemono to get an extra Ki to summon another, if that's what it takes.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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That's cool but what if I don't use bakemonos just the big guys what tactics are best used then?

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I dont know much tactics for oni-only outfit. But here are some things to think about.

Be very careful with them, dont waste them.  You cannot afford to lose them.
They have a lot easier time to surround you, as they have smaller bases.
Your guys are tough, but not tough enough. 

There will almost always be more of them and they'll have more activations and so take scenario actions.
You can mitigate that by smashing the easier targets fast.

Try to get the tougher opponents at a disadvantage - stun them, get them prone, etc. Zuba's ranged attack can be really good. 

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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In my last wave game, i did charge with Zuba , after declaring oni rage, but it is because my fow made the mistake of letting this pesky Matsu vulnerable, and the opportunity was too good.

However, i lost Zuba right away, when my fow, helped by some succeded fear tests, prevented me from bringing reinforcements around Zuba.
(neverthe less i dont regret it, zuba was charge by hiro who did a double on his wound test, so whatever my strategy would have been i'd lost him...)

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When not taking Bakemono take at least the slaves. You need something to protect the big guys. Sounds curious but so it is.

Single Oni will be tied up by models half their rice costs, and outnumbered and/or exhausted Oni are usually dead Oni as well as Oni with the aggressive trait when they are down to no defensive dies.

Oni are not so strong with the New Dawn rules. Even a charging Zuba with powerful strike (+7!)and good rolls needs a successlevel of more than 4 to onehit a puny prefecture spearman at less than half its costs.

 

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Yeap. I agree with what Cain said.

I've just began to play Savage Wave, and that's troubling me: how to limit surrounding. I think that powerful strike is useless on Zuba: he doesn't have enough dice, and already +3 in strength, +5 in charge.

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ok thats very interesting alot to think about there anything to said about fielding the Wu zang or trapeng with the bakemono what Oni would you field over the other or is just personal preferene?

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Powerful Strike +3 + Strong is almost a guarantee of 3 damage with 0 success level. Half the wounds on average model...

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Yup. But works only for non armored models. With armor 2 getting much better and more effective in the higher numbers the damage to the average 5 rice ashigaru drops from 3 to 1. And so much damage from a 13rice model doenst make Daisuke any headache.

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(Paying 1 die to get Powerful Attack is very seldom worth it. One die is generally +1 SL, which is very much like +2 damage, and an increased chance to win and avoid any special defence.)

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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Trap peng and Wu Zhang are very good choices.

You must understand that your strategy playing wave will generally be to manage to create conditions for your big guys to do the killing, the rest of your gang playing scenario and protecting these big guys.

With a bit of luck, Wu zhang will make sure Hiro never hits, or Kenko failed his iron attack and so.

Trapeng prevent cult models from moving freely

Bake archers can wound dangerous models, making them easy preys for your onis

Use them all, and use them wise

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Quote:

(Paying 1 die to get Powerful Attack is very seldom worth it. One die is generally +1 SL, which is very much like +2 damage, and an increased chance to win and avoid any special defence.)

Yes, its true, but you can spend the Charging bonus extra dice. I rarely use the powerful attack, but there is. Maybe you need to kill a Peasant no matter what to deny VP to the enemy, and with low success level you can. Obviously nobody wants to lose a die against a Samurai ^^

Also the Onis have brutal that helps a lot :D

 

Trapeng is a bastard xD He burns Ki, but negate an action to Hiro, Kenko, etc is awesome. Is the first Bakemono in all of my lists, with 1 more rice its much better than a normal one (..maybe those archers...). The free stun is gorgeous too.

 

 

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Uhm, you need a fair bit of luck to burn an action from Hiro, don't you? Getting a 5 when you cat four dice is quite frequent(*)... Or am i misunderstanding the rules?

(*) more or less 1-(4/6)^4 =80% of success.

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No, you are correct. It is a Move test with a difficulty of 5, or 6 if running or charging.

(6 on 4d6 is roughly 50%, and 60% on 5d6, of success.)

So the threat of it makes it less likely that enemies Run or Charge.

And 20% chance of stopping Hiro might well be worth it sometimes.

 

But Tra-Peng is worth his rice for the Stun marker alone.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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Believe me, when you declare run first turn, or a move and attack... seeing that your oponent spends ki to making you roll the dices is terrorific. The chance of success is high, but is the same with Hiro or with an Ashigaru... and happens. 2 ki for one activation of powerfull model is epic. Its not easy, but is game-changing.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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When do u declare the ki feat? After or before Hiro annouces he does a run action?

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After. It's an instant feat, you can declare it (almost) whenever you want, and the text says 'when an Enemy model [...] declares a [...] action'.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Malhorme
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Well that indeed gets intersting, more for the bluff than the real effect.
However it is a costly bluff, and you could get a couter-bluff (everybody moves before hiro, and runs, the vake player keeps the feat for later, and then hiro only walk, so othe rimportant minis could run... But i lile te bluff game...

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i love him . i think he has handed me all the victories with my wave, i do use a lot of ki for it but sometimes its enough to put my oponent off, i think i usually do his action at least twice a turn against pref, i have not played cult yet as only 1 other person in my group has a cult force but i am gonna mess his day up when we do lol

as far as bak's go i think he is a must, also love Uk-Kangs brain damage ability works very nice for stacking the stun counters of hard hitters,

 

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(Just so that there are no misconceptions; Stun doesn't stack. Multiple tokens just mean that it takes longer to recover.)

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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I also agree that if you only take the one bakemono, take Tra-Peng, other than that all the advice here is sound, go in, smash the weaker enemies to even the odds, work as a tight group, leave no lone Oni behind, let the enemies get the early objectives then reclaim them once you have smeared his warband across the board a little, it can be done (one of my defining memories last year is Master T's all oni force 'surrounding' a larger warband by backing them into a corner and splatting anyone who moved) Zuba's ranged attack is a huge leveller (if you can get two or more enemies with thats two activations lost) as are stun tokens.

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Hi. Some further questions please for those with the knowledge! :)

1. Moving - a model cannot move through a gap that is smaller in diameter than the size of its base, whether friendly ... or enemy if using Elusive trait? I understand a model that can leap or fly should ignore this issue? Correct of Not correct? I.e. Zuba cannot move between two bakemono if the gap between the bakemono is less than 50mm?

2, Targeting LoS - cannot draw LoS through a larger object even if friendly? I.e. Bakemono archer standing 1" behind Zuba cannot target enemy in front of Zuba because Zubas volume would block LoS? Only possible way to target enemy in this example is if bakemono archer is on terrain taller than Zuba so it can draw unobstructed LoS?

3. Tra Peng - If a model declares a move then Tra Peng can spend 2Ki & then model has to roll 5's or 6's to do that respective movement which if it fails then model becomes one state worse, doesn't move & Tra Pengs effect has been "spent" having no further effect? Also if that model passes move dice roll then again Tra Pengs effect is considered "spent" & doesn't stay effective against that model until the end phase?

4. Tra Peng - easiest way is to describe example. Kenko wanted to take a stroll. Tra Peng predicts this & says no way unless you roll a 5. Kenko rolls a 2 so can't walk & becomes tired. Kano then moves into melee with Kenko. Peasant Farmer sees Kenko is out of sorts & being a bodyguard & within 2" offers to swap places with Kenko.
a.) Can Tra Peng effect this special move by spending Ki before this move takes place?
b.) At what stage does the Farmer roll for fear test against Kano?
c.) What happens if Farmer fails fear test then can he not offer the bodyguard move?

Some hopefully interesting questions & look forward to your help/answers!

Cheers.

mrmccook
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I Like the revised PDF rules btw. When finalised is this to be made into an official book or kept as PDFs? Also on page 20 are the icons for move/melee not the wrong way around with the text?

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1 & 2) Yes. Other models count as Impassable and Blocking terrain.

3) Yes. I am not certain that you note that it is a Move test. I.e. you roll as many dice as your Move statistic. Kenko would roll 4d6 and need one 5/6.
The effect only lasts for the current movement.

4) It seems that Tra-Peng has to 'predict' that Kenko wants to take a stroll, but he can chose to use his feat after Kenko has declared a Move action, and so knows that he's out fora walk.

a) No. It's not a Move/Melee/Charge/Run action.

4.b&c) When the Peasant is about to be contacted. Which is after Bodyguard kicks in. He cannot be afraid if he wasn't about to be in BtB.

 

The NiM/NM icons error was caught in the crowdsourced errata, thank the Kamis.
And so will be in the forthcoming rulebook, which, despite some indications, probably won't  be made of bamboo.

I hope the rules will be up as pdf even after the printed book is out. I think it is a great help to draw new players in from places where there is nobody else to show the game.
That's how we got started - downloading the rules and profiles and having a go with proxies! smiley We wouldn't have begun otherwise.

It is also an immense help when answering rules queries. If I needed to find the printed rulebook I wouldn't be able to in many cases.

 

 

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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Hi Henrix,

Once again your knowledge is unsurpassed and I thank you for your usual help and replies. Are you sure I cannot just download your brain!???laugh

 

1 & 2 - thanks for confirming. Thought so but always reassuring to read.

3 - was doing this wrong in two ways - just using one dice but now correctly note that a "Move is a Statistic" and therefore noted in Kenko's case it would be on 4 dice - doh! Also I will not allow Tra Peng's effect to last than more than just the current movement! Double doh!

4 - That's fine, use feat after action declared if he's got enough Ki in the bakemono pool of Ki to use.

a.) An opponent might argue that it is "techincally" a move even if a special one but I am not going to argue with you because you are a Bushi, because I am Temple and so will gladly accept special rules/features!

b & c.) Afraid this is still a bit grey for me so bear with me ...

Kano moves into Melee with Kenko

Peasant Farmer within 2" of Kenko offers to be bodyguard and swaps places with Kenko putting bodyguard in BtB with Kano and Kenko 2" away from Peasant Farmer.

Because Peasant Farmer is within 3" of a Monk, Kenko, he loses his Cowardly trait

Because of Kano's Fear trait then surely at this stage the Peasant Farmer then rolls for a fear test needing a 4 or more because he is now in BtB with Kano who's after resolving a melee exchange.

If he passes then fair enough but if he fails the fear test you are seemingly saying he cannot be afraid because he wasn't the intended target of the original melee exchange in which case why we would roll for fear in the previous step above?

Sorry to be a pain.  I follow the rules of bushido - but I am thick ... so I am not a bushi!

 

mrmccook
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I agree with you BTW about retaining PDF rules because although for some it is good to have a printed rule book (I like a nice book to read sometimes) I also like printing PDF rules for playing games with and they can also be more fliuid when it comes to adjustments. Of course it is also important to draw in new players  via PDF rather than forcing a new player to buy a rule book for £30+ ... As you say a PDF can be easily accesible online whereas a rulebook made out of bamboo might not be. laugh

"We wouldn't have begun otherwise" ... doesn't bear thinking about now I am a Bushido Addict!!!!!

mrmccook
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Further question - what happens when an Feat (Riku Tsumani 8") or attack (Kenko Slam Attack D3") forces a model back and either part of the base would extend beyond the board edge or all of the base would extend beyond the board edge? Model lost in its entirity as a casualty regardless of wounds left on card?

Thanks.

Henrix
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4.a) You can argue with me as much as you want;-)
It doesn't matter if it is a 'move' or not. Tra-Peng can use his feat when an enemy "declares a Walk, Melee, Run or Charge action".
The Bodyguard swap is neither of those, nor even an action.

Let us go through your example step by step and see what happens. It is actually not entirely clear, due to discrepancies in how Fear and Bodyguard is written.

I. Kano declares a Melee action, with Kenko as the Target.

II. We see that Kano can reach BtB with Kenko.

III. The Temple player declares that the peasant uses Bodyguard and they switch positions.

IV. Kano is about to enter BtB with the peasant. The peasant checks for Fear, as usual. If he fails he becomes Frightened.
(What I said above is that before the peasant has used Bodyguard it is not about to be in BtB with Kano - so he cannot test Fear before that.)

V. Kano enters Melee with the poor, possibly Frightened, peasant, presumably to the latter's detriment.

 

I don't really know what happens at the edge of the board.
I think it works like Impassable terrain. (Being able to remove a mini by pushing it, or Controlling it to walk off, the edge would be very weird.)

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

mrmccook
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Would never dream of arguing with you ... as I'd probably start out Blind, Frightened, Stunned before being Controlled and falling Prone afterwards crying

Once again you come to the rescue. Understood about Tra-Peng. Handy to know to shut up the little "dustbin lid wearing green thing" if it happens again!!

In my odd example then fully understand and yes, possibly the Farmer like a lamb to the slaughter against Kano ... hang on ... was that a play on words? He he. At least it would shock Kenko to stop drinking his coffee ... get his head out of the clouds and regroup ready to bash Kano back (or at least in the game I was playing)

Edge of the board does pose an interesting question. Some could imagine the edge of a board like the edge of a cliff ... go too far  ... get too close ... and bye-bye! I also get the other side of the coin that could treat it like impassable terrain. Has this NEVER come up in thought/conversation in the past 2 years with any games played? Having played other games like 40k and X-wing then once off (even partially) the table edge is goodbye ... hence the question.

mrmccook
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Oh ... and any idea why the Temple dont have/can't have anytyhing that causes Fear? Having played against Savage Wave I like that as a Trait (I see also Cult have a few with it and the Ito that I am starting to collect have at least one with it) ?

I would have thought an aggresive Gorilla or a charging Water Buffalo would scare quite a few things and cause Fear ... ask a Bakemono the next time you see one ... smiley

Malhorme
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Hey, perhaps you should post all these questions in the according rule or faction section?
As it is now, all these very good question and answers will get lost in the forum, and are very hard to find again...

mrmccook
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I don't know if I will be asking anymore questions ... I've used up all my credit with Henrix ... ha ha ... just kidding!

I understand. I think I should make a copy of this to refer to in future and post any relevant future issues raised in this link in the appropriate faction/rule section.

Damon Carlton
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Just read this thread and I have one comment regarding charging.

If facing Master ekusa and his contemplate  existence, charge him especially if you have zuba, better to fight him and be exhausted rather than closer to your enemy and exhausted

Rule'z of the Nerdherd
A proud owner of a gold Bushido coin and a wooden spoon.