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undead_ichi
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lol i have found that super aggressive fighty lists either work massively well or fail hard there is no middle ground.

Ret-MattT
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Killing is what Kenzo is for. In fact he is a tad more stable in the killing department as his MS Ki boost cost 2 instead of Masunagis 3 (Powerful attack became worthwhile with the Errata imho). His freedom of movement allows him to be at the right spot at the right time at the cost of slightly worse killing ability which weighs over for me. It allows him to catch those fools easier.

Your Temple list was one of extremes. Great fighters or cheap support. This Ito list spreads out the offense and has one support model in Ayoko.

Now I only miss a Shisai with BoO (2) as I am so used to having 3 with Naoko around... Mehaps the one in the pipeline will oblige. Or maybe one that could summon small snakes a'la Nezumis rats...

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I acctually think both Kenzo and Masunagi are great objectivetakers. If you have those beasts turning an Idol for instance they have no problem defending it, especially with Cobra Strike activated. A lot of my games during the campaign at Smogcon I used Naoko with an Elexir to take scenarioactions turn one and the two scary samurai to do it turn 2 and beyond as they really dont have a problem fighting exhausted and a lot of the time it can be preferable to take scenarioactions with them and then defend the objectives and let the opponent waste activations by engaging them and get killed in the process. :)

 

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Having played mostly against warrior-centered Ito and ashigaru-heavy Ryu lists, my take on all of this is...
 
You don't need to be focused on killing to win, but it helps.
 
Combat lists have an effective, if blunt, method of winning scenarios.  Stomping the opponent so hard he can't gain the advantage while at the same time providing solid defense for the scenarios you are controlling.
 
The reason I find that warrior-centered lists seem to be easier than the tricky lists is that they are simply more reliable.  With a tricky list if some part of the plan doesn't fire off correctly, either due to poor playing or bad luck, the whole list will often rapidly fall apart.  Playing tricky does not leave a whole lot of room for mistakes and you will be punished for doing so.
 
Combat lists on the other hand don't require as much precision to "work".  Even if things start to go against the player they are usually forgiving enough that the player has a chance to recover.  This is usually because an individual model in a combat list doesn't rely on other models to function, they can often stand on their own well enough.
 
It really just comes to personal playstyle.  I don't feel either one is more valid than the other.

The Dice Gods are a cruel and fickle pantheon.

If Bushido were to be summed up in one word I would use "intense". You know a game is good when the tension runs so high you feel like you're about to have a heart attack.

Malhorme
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Well actually i disagree.
Combat list involve many dice casting, thus can provide results not excpected.

Lists based on speed and ki feats are far more relaible, as long as the player has some experience with them.
Issue with these is that they can hardly adapt to the opponent.

I personnaly gave up pure combat list, beeing fed up with horrible dice sessions (my regular fow had a 2 oni 35 rice list a few weeks ago. When bobata and zuba fail their ranged attacks, start having 1s in defense and end up stuck in combat because they are stuborn, just to see me score with my other minis, was one of these sessions).

I now belive in balanced lists, with a few front line and adaptable wariors and good resistance capabilities, with support to provide speed and nuisance.

Meavar
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@ ret orko, I disagree they are good objective takers, they are quite expensive models, thus when they might spend one action on the objective they do something a 4 rice bakemono could also do. And because they are expensive, and I find it very easy to capture an objective when defended by only one model. just make sure he is in a ZoC and he can't capture the objective, and either has to move away or engage. In both cases there is usually at least 1 corner of the objective I can claim afterwards (either with the same or a second bakemono).
 

@ Malhorne and deadjester
I think the major difference why one considers them dependent is on how one vieuws dependent.
A fighting list will roll a lot of dice (which also makes those dice even out on avarage) thus while luck plays a factor it is mainly with the dice rolling. The problem with tricksy lists is that most models depend a lot on each other, thus one lucky action of the opponent, or just a different list from what you are used to can really spell your doom. 
That being said, I usually think tricksy list are often more fun to play. But since I can't think of everything and can't protect myself from every possible counter a few fighters are usually necesary. Expecially if you fight the same opponents regularly and they change their lineup when they get a reasonable estimate what they have to use when they face you.  

Meavar

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I´m with Malhorme. Despite the fighters looking devastating on paper variance is to big. It takes too long to get the advantage with that method if the opponent is a fast list that scored well turns 1 and 2. Looking at the VP table the fast Warband can then go on defense and aim to sabotage the fighty Warbands scoring for a comfortable 6 Tourney points (1-0).

Further I´m not so sure how weak fast really means. My ito list above is 2 MS short from the max I could squeeze in at 50 Rice. The Ordering tactic is also something Ruy could emulate with Katsumoto which would be -1MS compared to the fighty Samurais. That´s a decent cost for the gain of say having 2 Yarimen scoring T1 in The Idols.

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I agree, but as you said your fast warband is only 2 MS below the max, thus while it might be a fast warband it is still quite fighty as well. And I think usually that works well if you use a tactic, but do not ignore the fact that fighting takes place.
You need some melee skill, is not the same as saying you need the maximum fighting prowes possible. The thing is finding the right balance between everything to be able to do what you want, do it well enough and still be able to respond to your opponent during the battle.

Meavar

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I agree with Malhorme too. Balanced lists with 3 fighters and some support/control are the best. And even those fighters are not for killing, but for hold the positions like LEJ said.
 
I liked how the time has gave a lot of perspective to some players, like Matt that hated Shisais in the past, or Seth, that hated Wakasu Akuma and now loves it. Playing with a model multiple times, learning to use it properly in a balanced warband is very rewarding and fun.
 
This game is so amazing.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Shisais still aren´t worth the points imo Atrus. I don´t like them but for the singular fact that they allow Satoshi to bark orders more rapidly and Sakura is alot worse than Ayoko.wink If a Ki-generating special card would appear or a cheaper Channeler (better than Sakura), Ayoko would get the boot. 

That said I definetly agree the game is amazing.

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Satsuki adds a lot to the Shisai toolbox too,  I agree that over time some models and even whole strategies that seemed less good were not as bad as they seemed and people are at least willing to try them.  

I'm used to games where "The Internet" decides if something is good or not and then its that way forever...  in the group think at least.  

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What a deep and interesting thread. Makes me excited for the next opportunity to sit down and play some games with you guys.

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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Is there a good 50 rice list featuring Ayako? I love the model but i don't really know when it's time to bring her out. Without using her unique effect (i.e.: having also sakura in the list, since she's the only other shisai) it's hard to win an opposed Ki test, expecially against those high Ki enemies.

And it's not worth to target low Ki models unless you want to apply some poison, because usually low Ki models are also low threat and low rice except the Oni. It's just unefficient to use a 10 rice model to stun 5-7 rice models, it's better just to kill them or tarpit (if you can). Using Ayako just as a channeler is bad because Sakura can do the same while costing 3 less rice. 

So, how do you use Ayako? In which list? Why? Does it work? laugh

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Greeny
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stunning is never inefficient, stun an ashigaru and he is less likely to push you out, stun a bakemono and he's a guaranteed kill, Stun a peasant and when he uses bodyguard you'll shred him even with a bushi. stunning at range is an immense ability (hence the entire thread dedicated to loving trapeng).

I'll be playing with Ito this week and I'll see if I can knock a list up:)

Ereshkigal
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If you stun a model with 1-2 ki, low rice value you are:

1) Using a 10 rice model, spending ki to stun him. Ayako then can't do almost anything apart from take cover with her second action (usually), or she's a sitting duck. And since it's an opposed test, you are not guarranteed to hit with the Ki Feat, your odds are usually 50/50 unless you have also Sakura nearby.

2) Using another model to kill the model stunned. So other rice invested in the kill. 

You spend at least 14 rice in this "combo" and if you want it really to work, you spend at least 21. Why not just spend 9, take Kaihime and shoot something with Ki Boost and BoO? Cheaper, less reliant on dices, you risk less models. The only instance in which i'll be glad to have Ayako, is to stun valuable targets, but to do so you need Sakura for sure, and that's 17 points in supports out of 50. An awful lot.

If you can convince me to take Ayako i'll be happy, since i bought her for the look but i can't find her a use.

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Well, play against bake, with extensive use of camouflage, darkness... And then realise you can barely shoot.
Play agains temple, and face moutain gale everyturn... And realise your shooting is useless.
Or consider a big fat jucy oni, just exhausted.
A good stun tocken, and the porr thing is left with one die.
Oppps, sorry, you are agressive. You can't defend! Ouch that hurted?

Not saying stun is always better than shooting, just saying that a cleaver and timely use of stun can bring you more than just a strong shooter.... As the game once again is about winning the scenario, not killing evrybody!

I'm not too much fan of the shisai, but i'm considering playing a list with satochi and a bunch of ahsigarus...

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Ok... I don't know if I'm the only person who plays double shisai on a regular basis, but it certainly feels like it.  My current 50 rice list I'm testing out is:

Model Name Rice
Ito Ayako 10
Ito Kenzo 10
Naoko 8
Sakura 7
Hitoshi 5
Temple Bushi 5
Temple Bushi  5

What you do on turn one does vary quite a lot depending on what you're playing against: for example, if it's Savage Wave your priority on turn one is to hit an Oni with Hypnotic Gaze if you can manage it before they use Darkness (given the lack of ranged attacks in the list, most don't use Darkness however).  Generally if you can hit something expensive with Hypnotic Gaze on turn one, you've set yourself up for an early game advantage - even a model like Taka suffers from losing an activation on turn 1 as the Wraith she summons will be further back.  No worries if it fails though, she'll have plenty of opportunity to use it again later in the game.

Sakura is there to give out Ki, you will want the two Temple Bushi to have speed 5 if your opponent has used Darkness, has Tra-peng, or has used Breath of Yurei.  To get them to speed 5 for one activation each, they need 1 Ki each from Sakura on turn 1.  If your opponent hasn't got any of these, then she can happily spend her Ki throwing out Psychic Venoms everywhere.  Other than that, her job is to cover any 'home' zones or objectives and provide Ayako with Force of Will.

I'm not going to go through every model in the list and their role, as you asked specifically about Ayako, if you want more detail on how the list works, I'll be happy to provide that information though.

Back to Ayako:
Once the game has really entered full swing, her roll is to nullify threats to Kenzo and Naoko, who should be working as a team to take down enemy targets very quickly - a target that is Blind is usually surprised, and when Kenzo opens up with Do-Kote on a model rolling 1 dice, they tend to die horribly.  With Force of Will (1) going, Ayako should be able to win the opposed Ki-tests against the majority of opponents, and have about 54% chance of winning against opponents with 2 Ki + Iron Mind (1).  Once you identify the lynchpin of your opponent's list (Ryoko-Sha, any Oni that isn't 3 Ki, Kenko) she should be trying to tire them out and put the stun token on them as soon as possible, or deny them of Ki.  If she can't do either, just throw out cheap and easy 1 Ki Psychic Venoms on easy targets to get some free damage going.

The list has a really hard time against opponents who have a lot of Souless models, or masses of Iron Mind (I played against a Prefecture list that was teched against me and every model had Iron Mind (1) once); but overall this type of list by far my most successful.  It's not about having a straight up fight, it's about targetting specific parts of your opponent's list and removing them as a threat while you work to achieve your objectives.  Only fools try to have a fair fight!


It always goes to tiebreakers.

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everything they just said i agree with:) because stunning isn't affected by range bands, cover, movement, ranged defense etc, it become more viable than a single ranged shot very quickly. its quite easy to keep ranged attacks almost useless on a board with an appropriate amount of cover. Kaihime is often more likely to miss than Atako is to fail an opposed test Vs a 1 ki model, and then you have wasted an action entirely.- from experience, if you are going to base your plans around kaihime's ranged ability, you are going to be disappointed on a fairly regular basis.

Stunning anyone lasts for the whole turn, leaving them vulnerable to any attack and sometimes forcing an enemy to play cagey when they would have been more aggressive, dont forget her feat also reduces them from rested/tired/exhausted, which is great! and she can walk and move- walk to an objective, blast an enemy, turn objective with next action.

(also psychic draining things like rice farmers can deny monks their cheap ki feats and boosts, which can be invaluable)

The list I'll try this week- 

  • Ayako 
  • Sakura/Shisai2
  • Takeji 
  • 2x Temple Bushi 
  • Hitoshi 
  • Satoshi with elixir of vigour
  • Dark Secrets

that gives me one very hard hitter with a lot of wounds, plus command abilities, Takeji and Hitoshi to threaten/slow down enemy fighters and watch the shisai, Two Shisai to boost their abilities and blast enemies whilst sucking up Ki and keeping the warriors charged and two boosted bushi to grab objectives and support enemies- the two shisai can now also focus turn one, give satoshi 2  Ki, and the bushi 3 Ki each (or 5 ki to one bushi) giving them the speed to grab objectives turn one, or enabling one of them to move,/charge an astonishing 18" turn one...I'm almost tempted to give the vigour to the bushi for the extra activation so I can make it 22": (I will kill your little girls wherever they hide...) looking forward to dropping a 3 point token on an enemy shrine and then throwing a cheap dark secrets at any nearby 1 Ki enemies so I can use them to keep the Bushi alive on turn 2!

maybe it won't work, maybe it will, but I'll give it a go and see:)

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I would agree that a balanced list is probably the best...it is just sometimes hard to find the right balance.  Especially when you play Wave.  wink

Rolls can affect a Tricksy list just as much as a Combat list...but often with more devestating results IMHO.  Another way to put is is that tricksy lists often require a larger, more complicated "string" of synergies while most combat list synergies are smaller in scale and more "point and click".

And Greeny...best of luck to you.  That list sounds like it will either be devestating or fail in spetacular fashion.  laugh

The Dice Gods are a cruel and fickle pantheon.

If Bushido were to be summed up in one word I would use "intense". You know a game is good when the tension runs so high you feel like you're about to have a heart attack.

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@Ereshkigal (Godess of War? Really?) I couldn't agree more. Shisais issue is roi, which is bad. They pay their turns Ki income for a chance to affect the board and then they are without a clear job description.

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I think shisai get a bad rap, at ms2 they as good in melee as a Bakemono or kairai, they are perfect objective grabbers, their feats are unreliable (but so is Ikiryo and she seems to get away with it) but tactical, they can channel, all for 7 rice- bargain! Compare them to other spellcasters and they are usually better in melee, cheaper and have access to blood of Orochi. Ayako does seem a bit steep even to me at 10 rice but i've seen her used to great effect on several occasions:)

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MattT wrote:

@Ereshkigal (Godess of War? Really?)

Goddess of the underworld (even if i'm male, i love the character).

 

About the Shisai and Ikyrio... Ikyrio has the opportunity to oneshot people, has a Ki stat of 3 to win opposed tests, she has fear 6! and the other feats aren't bad at all. If your opponent plays turning his back against you to avoid looking into the void you still get an advantage without even spending Ki. If you are engaged you can avoid up to 3 wounds and inflict them back... the only lackluster thing she has is the Unique Effect imho. Other than that, she's really strong.

Ok, i don't want another Ikyrio in the Ito, since we have a lot of good melee models while Yurei has less, but Ikyrio has plenty of reason to being fielded while i can't see any reason to prefer Ayako (or even Sakura imho) over a fighter (or two!).

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Sakura is Bakemono of 7 points that gives you 1 BoO token and 2 ki for share.
 
Ayako for me is awesome model. She is like Sakura but with a lot of additions: Sidestep, Movement 5 and light footed are very useful as an objective grabber. Ki Drain is epic, and Hypnotic Gaze without range limit is devastating. Like all the casters, the opposed ki tests are random, but with Huge reward (the cult players know it well). She also has Combo, very useful in some situations, for example when a marionnete is close to your exhausted Kenzo...

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Ayako would have been great with a Ki stat of 3 or if we had a decent Shisai at ricee 5 imho. In a strategy/tactical game you need reliability to perform well. She's too random to be good. Yes some games will make you win, but in a tournament setting when she'll make you lose you'll be really disappointed. 

I've a tournament mentality (since my past experiences) and spending 1/5 of your force to have a single 50% chance to stun an equally costed model and then do nothing useful for the rest of the turn is a bad choice. And that 50% chance is being optimistic because a lot of 10 rice models has some tech against opposed ki tests or has 3 Ki. And using a 10 rice model to stun less costed models is a waste of rice imho. The only saving grace of Ayako is the range of that Ki Feat.

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I think from the tone of your replies (and please dont take this as an attack, it is merely an observation) that you either haven't played Ayako/shisai enough, or simply havent played Bushido enough, to understand the value of non-combatants, situational feats and non-melee based strategy. Maybe if you played a few more games against a spread of enemy warbands you would see the use of shisai in a balanced list.

You seem to have a bit of a fixed standpoint on this, you keep saying she will 'do nothing useful for the rest of the turn', she can still move and ki feat, and cliam objectives, stand in control zones, in fact she can do the same things that every other model in the game can do, I think shisai are incredibly useful for taking objectives for the very reasons that they are unlikely to be in melee, and can afford to stay out of the way a little. 

if you want to take nothing but fighters (as your statements suggest) go for it, that's your choice, and the Ito are a good force to play if you have that mindset, their fast, durable warriors make them a very easy facton to play such a simple tacical plan with, but you will find you struggle in any game against a skillful opponent with a balanced warband. 

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Let me iterate some more: 

You spend all your ki, you tire and use a simple action to have a 50% of doing almost the same to another model. I say almost because your opponent don't lose the Ki but gains a stunned (which is worse imho, sometimes is better to be stunned but have the Ki). It's just not worth it imho. The -1 MS won't even matter most of the times and if it matters, it would have been better to just have a Bushi around to tire and outnumber the enemy (for half the cost). 

If you take Ayako for the Hypnotic Gaze, you are putting yourself at disadvantage. The saving grace of Ayako is the Psychic Drain, but it's very very risky since the range is low. But if you can chain a 3Ki Drain and then use that Ki to fuel a free Hypnotic Gaze, you gain an advantage: you negate 3Ki and an action while losing 1 ki and 2 actions. 

But the question is: is 2 ki worth more than an action? Imho, no. And if you account the chances of achieving it, it's even worse. 

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@Greeny: you are very right. But when i say "nothing useful" i really mean: nothing a cheaper model would do equal or better without jeopardizing your strategy (since moving a 10 rice non combatant model near an objective is putting it at a very high risk). 

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Ereshkigal wrote:

Let me iterate some more: 

You spend all your ki, you tire and use a simple action to have a 50% of doing almost the same to another model. I say almost because your opponent don't lose the Ki but gains a stunned (which is worse imho, sometimes is better to be stunned but have the Ki). It's just not worth it imho. The -1 MS won't even matter most of the times and if it matters, it would have been better to just have a Bushi around to tire and outnumber the enemy (for half the cost). 

If you take Ayako for the Hypnotic Gaze, you are putting yourself at disadvantage. The saving grace of Ayako is the Psychic Drain, but it's very very risky since the range is low. But if you can chain a 3Ki Drain and then use that Ki to fuel a free Hypnotic Gaze, you gain an advantage: you negate 3Ki and an action while losing 1 ki and 2 actions. 

But the question is: is 2 ki worth more than an action? Imho, no. And if you account the chances of achieving it, it's even worse. 

Sometimes, yes it is. because you are also taking 2Ki from the enemy, stopping them doing ki feats/boosting attacks..  is it worth one action to stop Minuro using quick reload? how about stopping Hanso using move it? or stopping Nezumi creating another rat swarm, Taking away Aiko's blessing for a turn? would you consider a 50% to stop these a waste of an action? I sure wouldn't

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lol, I wouldnt call Shisai non-combatants, as I play mostly Bakemono and Kairai warbands they are equal to my elite troops!

It's good to discuss things like this on the forums as it can make you re-evaluate models, or even just firm up your own strategies in your minds:) I though Harionago was a waste of space at first, but some other forum members posts made me take a second look at her:)

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You could just bring another Shisai or even just Kazuhiko and be able to cast both Psychic Drain and Hypnotic Gaze every turn in whichever order you choose by channeling 1 Ki to Ayako...

Having Force of Will (1) also increases the chance of success dramatically (it goes from 54% to something like 70% against a 2 Ki target without Iron Mind (1)).


It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Ret-A_Palmer wrote:

You could just bring another Shisai or even just Kazuhiko and be able to cast both Psychic Drain and Hypnotic Gaze every turn in whichever order you choose by channeling 1 Ki to Ayako...

Having Force of Will (1) also increases the chance of success dramatically (it goes from 54% to something like 70% against a 2 Ki target without Iron Mind (1)).

Ofc! And that's why i said the minimum package is 14 rice, the optimal is 21. But it's really a lot... In my mind (but i'm open to test it until it works since i love Ayako model and i own her) i would like to pay at most 13 rice to have a 70% chance to hypnotize a model. 17, is really too much.

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Well, I would recommend trying out as large a variety of lists as possible.  As mentioned, I like my double shisai lists but there are certain models that I just can't get to work for me (Itsunagi) despite all my effort, but other people swear by them.  Just find whatever list suits your play style.


It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Malhorme
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Hey guys, i have a suggestion:
Greeny, as you seem to master the shisai, could you illustrate a battle reppirt with them?
Actually, i would be curious to see them used, as i always end up in picking another model;-)
Thanks in advance!

Ret-MattT
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Good challenge Malhorme.I´ve tested them quite abit and everything Eresh theorizes is accurate.

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Ereshkigal
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MattT wrote:

Good challenge Malhorme.I´ve tested them quite abit and everything Eresh theorizes is accurate.

 

Shiet... i want to be proved wrong so bad.

The shisai will get a lot better if a new shisai fighter/ranged model appear. Then things will change. Expecially if he'll be a bodyguard. Ito could build a denial list in that case.

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Greeny
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Ill see what I can do this week:) for me a fighting shisai would be a strange idea? The Ito are balanced as stands, not every model needs the ability to be a frontline fighter, that us not what bushido is about.

Ereshkigal
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Well, not  a fighter like 4MS or even 3MS. Even a 5-6 rice model similar to the jade mamba guard with bodyguard shisai being a shisai itself.

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Greeny
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Perhaps a special card granting the bodyguard/shisai ability?

Ereshkigal
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It needs to be a shisai though, to help with ayako unique effect.

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Greeny
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So you'd be looking at a trainee priestess, rubbish but cheaper than the usual priestesses, and with bodyguard?

Ereshkigal
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Yeah why not? You sacrifice her before ayako and you still gain force of will to win some opposed ki tests.

Something like this:

Temple Acolyte - Shisai

Melee 2 no ki boost. Movement 4, Ki 2-6, Health 5

Channel (3), Bodyguard 2/Shisai, Immunity (poison)

Ki feats: X Ki, next turn this model gains BoO (X). Max 2.

Unique Effect: same as the other Shisai.

4 Rice.

It will be a Ki battery and will help ayako staying alive for 1 or 2 attacks.

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Greeny
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For 4 rice id drop either her MS or Ki, possibly both, but looks good to me, the feat is a nice idea.

GCT Master T
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Better get saving the Silvermoons then, although you'd find it hard to get a MS 2 and Ki 2 that channels and creates BoO for 4 Rice past me smiley

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Ereshkigal
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Well, i wasn't exactly trying to balance but giving a direction smiley, it could be 6 rice or have 1MS. I don't really care that much honestly. Just something to make shisais work a bit better than now.

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Deadjester
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I feel Sakura is fine as is, but given the cost of Ayako I can see the issue with her.

Maybe make an upgrade card where another model counts as a Shisa?  Pretty simple and straightforward.  Something along the lines of;

Student of Orochi

Enhancement, Multiple x2

Model counts as a Shisa

Cost: 1 Rice

 

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If Bushido were to be summed up in one word I would use "intense". You know a game is good when the tension runs so high you feel like you're about to have a heart attack.

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Both are a smidgen to expensive. Support models have a hard time in this game because of the 2 action-per-model rules which effectively halves the number of models on the table. They are both fine in what they do, but not for the cost. 

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I dont see any problem with Ayako, she is awesome! And Sakura is good also, but i prefer Ayako x1000 times. Ki Drain? Tire+Stun at unlimited range? Movement 5 light footed? Epic.

The Shisai have 2 activations, capable of taking objectives, giving BoO only for exist, and with channel 2, very useful. Honestly, I don't know why people are crying a lot about Shisai. There are models with more problems like Waka, Gengo, or Fishermen. Shisai are good in my opinion :S

I think you need to play with a list full of bakemono :P

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When I actually get around to playing Ito I'll have a better grasp on Shisa.  On paper I think Sakura is fine (psyhic venom is good, just need to be a little patient with it) but I can see Ayako being a tad on the expensive side.  Does she have some awesome abilites?  Yes.  Is it worth 10 rice...eh, maybe.

I don't feel the "can claim objectives!" argument works very well for Ayako though.  I mean, so what?  A bushi can grab objectives just as well and for the same cost you can get two of them.  That's twice the number of activations and twice the number of objetives you can grab.  Or grab an objective with one and use the other one for defense.

Which brings up the issue of Ayako's speed and objectives.  She can get to the objective faster but that is only a good idea if your opponent is ignoring said objective.  Throwing her ahead of your force without back-up is foolish.  So IMHO the extra speed is a moot point without being able to have some defence.

BTW all Bake lists are a lot of fun to play. :)

The Dice Gods are a cruel and fickle pantheon.

If Bushido were to be summed up in one word I would use "intense". You know a game is good when the tension runs so high you feel like you're about to have a heart attack.

Ereshkigal
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Bake don't cost 10 though. And why should i reach for Ayako when i have better choices inside the faction? That's the real problem. Internal balance. Right now i think Ayako is a sub par choice, maybe i'm right maybe i'm wrong, i need some testing. But if it's sub par, there is no argument like "play bakemonos" that will hold. I play what makes me win, because i play with a tournament mentality. I play to win and i have fun if my opponents do the same.

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Greeny
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I think the thread has lost it's way a little, and the entrenched 'i hate shisai' position isn't really about list building, ill try my game Thursday (currently Ito all fighty vs the list I posted above) and write a report, and we can continue the shisai query there perhaps? Though I'm not sure either side seems willing to concede anything at this point;p back to list building- vial of raidens breath, who would you put it on?

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