Card redesign

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Studio
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Card redesign

Hello, we would welcome feedback on our new card design, the main aims were to increase legibility and make enough differences for them to be clearly distinguishable from the previous version to avoid confusion.

At the bottom on the weapon information we are leaning to the version on the left with the melee or ranged symbol on the bar and dropping the wax stamp, this saves a lot of space and avoids cramping the text.

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Aldebarankyo
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The card is clearer, although I  not see the range of the weapon at a distance (yours remove the range of the weapon distance?). One aspect that I do not like is that the life points are very small, not relevant. I have a final question, will you remove the text to the back of the card?

Aldebarankyo
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The card is clearer, although I  not see the range of the weapon at a distance (You are going to remove the range  the range of the weapon distance?). One aspect that I do not like is that the life points are very small, not relevant. I have a final question, will you remove the text to the back of the card?

farseerixirvost
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A is the card 1-sided? Where are the “special abilities?”

If I Live, I Will Kill You.
If I Die, You Are Forgiven.
Such Is The Rule Of Honor.

Quwaz
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It feels really unnecessary and over designed. There is not really any more information on the card than with the original cards other than ki as a number instead of symbols, I guess. It's not like the Minimoto starter cards that have traits listed out on them. All this does is make the card look like a spreadsheet of numbers and boxes of text. Sure it's "efficient" but it seems like it's not actually any more helpful. It looks like a card designed by an accountant. Rice cost on the front is neat?

ibanezmark
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Not sure what I think of the card. The older ones look more fancy in my opinion.
the place to track damage is kinda weird. I think a lifetracker at the bottom is better.

I don't think the ricecosts are needed on the front, just place them on the back.
the waxstamps are better this way. Much clearer.

Don't forget I'm used to the old cards, so I might need to get more time to get used to them.
i do appreciate that your working to get a better version of the cards.

僧兵

skydancer
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Like :

1) Front rise cost. Usefull.

2) Overall restyle with section for feats and traits.

3) Life Points are easy to count now. U could improve the size a bit.

Don't like : 

1) Fonts (BAD also) for KI, really miss the KI symbol of the old card style. So much clear.

2) Name : improve the impact of the name font, (white maybe?) The name is the most important for storytelling.

3) Wapon section. (damage and skill related to specific weapon) imo is not clear and need to be reworked. (better the old style with the balloons of special attack/def)

4) The outline of the fonts are red instead of black now.(i mean the 4 major skill) is very bad now. Red over red over wight is not clear. Try go back to black outline.

Meavar
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I like the better readability expecially of the 4 standard stats and making the 5th health dot different so counting health is easier. The small ki boost for the skills now seem slightly small and easy to mistake. I liked that before the kids was all done the same (feats and boosts) even if the counting of kiwi dots was sometimes annoying (when the ki was large like the bakemono summon etc)
The melee skill on the left has my preference since it is better readable and feels less cramped.
I do understand and agree to the sentiment that the card looks a bit spreadsheet expecially the ki feats and having the straight lines between every grouping.
I do miss the health at the bottom right but I think that is mostly a sentiment because I am used to it.

Meavar

Sgnappa
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Rice cost on the front are really useful, maybe it would be possible to have it on the front AND on rear to always have this reference. I would prefer that rice cost would be always on the same position, switching the faction simble because some models are multi-faction and would be quite annoying to have such information in different places on different cards, since it is an info that every card have.

I don't like the Ki numbers under the attributes, to me is more nice to have ki simbols, add flavour to the cards and doesn't really make card more difficult to read.

Wounds are good, and the coloured wound on the fifth makes more readable (like warmahordes). But I prefer to see wounds on the right or maybe on the bottom, and not centered on the card; i think this allows a player to track wounds more easily.

About the feats... I don't like the Ki number instead of symbols like I said before, and I don't really get how useful would be to have all that informations on the front when the real effect is well described on the rear. Maybe for more experienced players this would be Ok, but I hope that choice doesn't lead to mistakes from back to front. 

Finally, I prefer a weapon symbol on the red dot but It's only me, having the same symbol of the MS and a number without explicit modifier could be misunderstandable for unexperienced players; so the left choice save space and is more readable. Maybe a blood spatter that makes easy to get that is a damage modifier could be useful; having the melee weapons always on the left and the ranged on the left (with the range info) would be good to me.

evilazza
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Having only just had one demo and just starting the game , I find the current cards better, more unique and fit the style of Bushido, I find the new cards boring, uninspiring and more akin to a collectible card game

cain
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Not sure about the health bar. In WM/Ho we have 15-30 hitpoints often enough so a fifth box marker does something useful for counting multiples of five.

With only a handful of models with 10 life here in the game we get a single mysterious red dot somewhere in the health bars. Seems not necessary to me. "I marked the red dot, what happens now?" will be a common question for new players.

Trying to identify the black (second) numbers under the maintstats. Ok, a look in the featbar tells me they are to be KI boots but in the first view they are not so easy to identify. Prefer the old type.

minoa
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My first reaction was, "Why change the cards?". But it's their game and I'm just here for the ride so here are my opinions after some time to digest the idea.

1. A) Why such a think border around the card? Couldn't it be made thinner or removed entirely to use the whole space of the card? Seems awfully prominent for being just a border.

B) Or if you must have a border... Maybe try to work in the hit point bar into the border along the bottom or right side. The rest of the border could be artwork of some sort (bamboo shoots, Asian themed tribal art, etc)

2. I agree with other posters, I like the old way of indicating ki costs with symbols instead of a number

3. Again, I agree with other posters... The layout just feels sterile, lacking any "flavor". Both of my above points would help I think.

4. Last point. Keep things on the card consistent. With the wax stamps and the number of dice, it's on the card in 3 different positions. At the bottom it's in the right corner. With the wax stamps to the right of the portrait, the number is on both the right and left side of each stamp. Personality I like them in the bottom right corner.

maldoror42
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Sorry but I prefer the current version of the cards of profile. The new design is poor and cards are illegible for me....

skydancer
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Just a tips for the designer. Print card and look at it to check if a design is good or bad. Sometime you spent a lot of time doing stuff that seem good on a monitor then you print and realize it's not ok.

Ret-Fleafa
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Minoa - note the card design file likely includes a 'bleed' region and all cards have a 'safe' region outside of which critical content shouldn't be placed. Ignoring this could lead to info being cut off the cards!

PandaBier
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I like how the card is way more structured now. The table increases the readability alot, but I would go even further than that.

I would change the symbols in the table. They were never that intuative to me in the first place. As a beginner you always have to look up what BtB or Time C means again. Try to make it as intuative as possible where you already understand the rule just by looking at the symbol.

I also don't know if white on a bright red is a good color choice for the sword symbols. The Hitpoints aren't so good as well in this version. They should be "flashier" somehow.

 

Quwaz
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This may be totally inaccurate, in which case please correct my train of tought on this:

Could it be that you were aiming to make the cards look like player cards from Guild Ball? I know that there are several members of the retainers program who play Guild Ball, and I have had conversations with GCT employees about Steamforged and Guild Ball. So I would really doubt that there was absolutely no influence at all from their style as they are a popular company with a miniatures skirmish game similar to Bushido.

But several of the big changes that I've noticed people comment on seem to be designs that are very similar to Guild Ball cards; namely changing the health and feats design. The Ki Feat table almost seems like a copy of the Character Plays table on Steamforged cards. (Though one design from their cards that could be nice to add is listing model base size on the back of the card, as right now the only way to see that is in the online store page)

If you are unfamiliar with the designs I'm talking about:

https://imgur.com/a/Cx8m11T

I don't know how to put images in the post like Ret-Fleafa did...

GCT Master Enos
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I actually work for Steamforged as well as GCT so I am aware of their cards but there was no intent to make ours look like theirs.  Remember this is an early version, we're looking at changes needed for some of the new editions rules and also making sure the cards cannot be mistaken for the current edition ones.

Also, the table for Character Plays is the same as the spell card for every Warlock/Warcaster...  there's nothing new under the sun!

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Quwaz
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It shouldn't be that hard to make the cards different from each other. Art changes, simple color changes, background alteration, even just a symbol on the card to show that it's the new "current" edition of the card instead of the first edition. Sometimes less is more.

The symbols and artistic visual focused style of Bushido are a big point that lots of people enjoy. You can't be too "efficient" with the design or it will lose some of the oriental style that the game is based on. I even still remember my first demo into the game; I was really pulled in by the fluidity of the movement and the imagery of martial arts and kung fu monks. Don't bog down the beauty of the world and martial arts with too many charts and numbers. It's not a organized sport or a grimdark war, it's a kung fu movie, right?

Flow like water, let the changes come gently and naturally. Try not to over think it heart

Quwaz
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It shouldn't be that hard to make the cards different from each other. Art changes, simple color changes, background alteration, even just a symbol on the card to show that it's the new "current" edition of the card instead of the first edition. Sometimes less is more.

The symbols and artistic visual focused style of Bushido are a big point that lots of people enjoy. You can't be too "efficient" with the design or it will lose some of the oriental style that the game is based on. I even still remember my first demo into the game; I was really pulled in by the fluidity of the movement and the imagery of martial arts and kung fu monks. Don't bog down the beauty of the world and martial arts with too many charts and numbers. It's not an organized sport or a grimdark war, it's a kung fu movie, right?

Flow like water, let the changes come gently and naturally. Try not to over think it heart

Ret-Zabarr
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Kung Fu movie or 13 assassins? 

Thanks for sharing the side by side comparison.  It finally helped me put a finger on why I prefer the older cards.  The layout of the previous cards is vertical.  Beautiful, perhaps less efficient.  The proposed layout is horizontal.  Perhaps more efficient, but also less eye catching.  

Ret-Fleafa
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Design is an iterative process, and feedback is an essential part of this.
Perhaps what wasn't well communicated is that the design above is still very much a work in progress.
Also, there is a need for more information to be displayed on the cards next edition or, at least, separation of that information for clarity of rules-implementation, as well as legibility.

I wonder if the re-use of assets from the current edition has tricked people into thinking the art is final, whereas this is just a layout concept. Traditionally, these are done without art, in black and white; a wireframe. Not so fun to look at, but clearer that the prettification (totally a word) is yet to come.

This, combined with the need to have a one-size-fits-all design, has resulted in a loss of some flavour for the time being.

furios
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Hi all,

I can understand thath cards must be redesign for a new edition.

When I look at this new card, , I do not feel the bushido atmosphere.

The proposed layout seems efficient except for :

  • the two last section for weapon on the base of the card. I do not understand the difference between the 2 sections.
  • Th ki boost . I do not saw them at first sight nor I understand that it is ki cost. I think it is missing a ki symbol.

In conclusion, I think that with a new layout you have to explain it as it is done in a rule book before player can said if it efficient or not for reading them.

Quwaz
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"Also, there is a need for more information to be displayed on the cards next edition or, at least, separation of that information for clarity of rules-implementation, as well as legibility."

If this is the case I don't really know what feedback you can actually gain by showing the cards this early as they currently are. If there is new gameplay mechanics or additional information needed on the cards that cause you to need a reformat into a spreadsheet then how can we actually know if it looks good with limited information on what is actually needed from changes to the product? It seems like a lot of the GCT response posts are mixed information: "we are just trying to make it distinguishable from old cards" "rules are changing for the new edition" "need a one size-fits-all design" What do you want us to say? You're basically giving us a steel frame and asking if we would like driving the car.

I think a good sum of the comments is that people like vertical layout, they like symbols over numbers and text, and they just want to make sure information makes sense on the card in a consistant way.

btw, if you do keep the wax seals, maybe you could colour them for each faction? I like when I can have uniformity under the same banner. Ways to say "I'm this group and they are different than that other group!"

Ret-Fleafa
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There's only been one GCT response, and that was from Enos. I've had input in the design process, as have other retainers, but none of us can speak officially. I agree it is hard to answer the question, "What do you think?" without receiving some explanation of the specifications and constraints.

Axiam
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From a personal note, I really dislike the horizontal bars for the headers, especially the fact that the rice cost bowl and faction symbol break out of the bottom of the top one.
I'm not sure that the horizontal bars are really necessary for making the cards look different.
I'm OK with the hot point bar moving beneath the head image but will this still work for higher hp and dual track cards? (Karapan for example) will it be easy to differentiate the two tracks?
I don't like the red splotch too indicate the 5th hp, just put numbers in them if you want it to be easy to see and accurate. The splotch will just convince me that I've lost that hp when I've only lost one (I mark wounds on the card in red).
I like the left option for weopan indicator and rules but think the list should be left aligned (probably just an ocd issue but it looks odd having centre alignment to a side of the card.
Otherwise I'm interested to see how they turn out and what new things will need displaying.

Thanks for the opportunity to give feedback,
Adam.

Axiam

Axiam
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From a personal note, I really dislike the horizontal bars for the headers, especially the fact that the rice cost bowl and faction symbol break out of the bottom of the top one.
I'm not sure that the horizontal bars are really necessary for making the cards look different.
I'm OK with the hot point bar moving beneath the head image but will this still work for higher hp and dual track cards? (Karapan for example) will it be easy to differentiate the two tracks?
I don't like the red splotch too indicate the 5th hp, just put numbers in them if you want it to be easy to see and accurate. The splotch will just convince me that I've lost that hp when I've only lost one (I mark wounds on the card in red).
I like the left option for weopan indicator and rules but think the list should be left aligned (probably just an ocd issue but it looks odd having centre alignment to a side of the card.
Otherwise I'm interested to see how they turn out and what new things will need displaying.

Thanks for the opportunity to give feedback,
Adam.

Axiam

kotep
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I've been playing this game for several years, including introducing new players, and we generally all have the same criticism of the cards - the font for the numbers. Other than that the cards are just fine.

So that being said, I like the change in font to make the numbers easier to read. Everything else feels like change for change's sake and not necessary.

If the change is happening for sure, please go with the bottom left for weapon information - less confusing.

Gotw
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I think this is a clear explanation of how I feel about the new cards. agree 100 percent. 

DRC
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While agree with some that the current cards look better, particularly the health bar, if the proposed changes improve the play experience then I'm happy either way. Personally I'm more interested in whether it is intended that the back oc the card will providevtrait effects (as in the minamoto starter set)?