Best faction for teaching?

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Best faction for teaching?

One of the things I can't help but do is promote a game I like.  I usually wind up tailoring two forces for any game I play just to teach a game on. 

That being the case, I'm deciding on a third faction.  I took Ito for myself and my wife took Ro-kan.  The third will be a teaching tool.

At first glance, I thought the Prefecture would be the best.  They are described as a middle of the road faction, so it might be a good to use them for teaching. 

What do you think?  If you agree the Prefecture is best, which three models on top of the Starter would you recommend for me to get?

 

Thanks!

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Hi
You are correct, prefecture!

Not because they are the middle of whatever road (guess why they are saying that, the samourais are likely to be the best figthers and hiro is perhaps the most deadly) but because they have less interactions than others.

You can play valuable prefecture groups without any interaction actually (mizuchi, matsu, mikio, tenchi, hiro...), or if you get the trick of using hanso with the ashigaru (hanso to give move it, fujitaka to give Ki), you will master tnhe most difficult part.
Besides, they have less ki feat than others, and have more resistant models (armour), meaning you can foccus on the objectives, your armour will buy you time).

If you start with the starter, than buy Fujitaka, junichi and matsu or bikou.
The two first work well in an all ashigaru band, the last ladies are more independant characters than you can try to play to give you some change.

Hiro 11
Hanso 9
Ashigaruspear 5
Ashigaruspear 5
Minuro 5
Fujitaka 5
Junichi 5
Bikou 9
= 54 pt
Or
With Matsu, you are a 51pt...

Let us know!

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I'd say not the Prefecture.

They are very easy to grasp for a newbie. Often they do not need the interaction as much, and the basics are simple - we all know how soldiees and sergeants interact.

If you place both sides in the hands of newbies the Prefecture will win a lttle too easily, showing the game more imbalanced than it really is.

The Cult starter is ver special. Ikiryo in particular can be dissuading for the opponent.

I'd go for the Savage Wave.
They are interesting enough to make a very distinct game and show off some of the rules niceties.

If you're expanding the starter I'd get some more hitters - new players can find the just one is very fragile.
I like Kano, but Boba is also nice.
Kemono & Ushi are an interesting army in themselves.
Tra-Peng or Wu-Zang make the bakemono bit better, getting them more Ki and allowing them to make more things with it.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Joey_Boy
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The best faction would be the one that the new guy/girl likes the look of and are interested in as a possible starter for themselves.

 

While rules balances are important, I always feel like I get more from playing something that interests me instead of something that someone else thinks should interest me. :)

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Retainer-Henrix wrote:

I'd say not the Prefecture. They are very easy to grasp for a newbie. Often they do not need the interaction as much, and the basics are simple - we all know how soldiees and sergeants interact. If you place both sides in the hands of newbies the Prefecture will win a lttle too easily, showing the game more imbalanced than it really is. The Cult starter is ver special. Ikiryo in particular can be dissuading for the opponent. I'd go for the Savage Wave. They are interesting enough to make a very distinct game and show off some of the rules niceties. If you're expanding the starter I'd get some more hitters - new players can find the just one is very fragile. I like Kano, but Boba is also nice. Kemono & Ushi are an interesting army in themselves. Tra-Peng or Wu-Zang make the bakemono bit better, getting them more Ki and allowing them to make more things with it.

 

Waaw! I would say the opposite! ;-)

Wave can be discouraging at first, Zuba is hard to understand how to use, and one can easily fall in the "kill my bake i have loads" trap.

I would certainly not suggest wave for a new player if he wants to learn to game. Too complex, learning curve slow...

But I agree with what was just said: perhaps the best faction is the one you like the most!

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Toshiro is talking about a teaching faction, for demoing.

My faviurites to pitch against each others in demos are the Temple and the Wave.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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My only hesitation with the Wave is that they seem to be a one trick pony who doesn't always perform.

The plan is simple, march down field and smash someone in the face.  But I do want a little more interaction, to help give people some feel for the game.  I hadn't thought the Wave could do that, but I think I'll revisit the idea.

Cult seems like it has a steep learning curve, which can discourage a new player.  Part of the reason I considered Ryu is that while there is something of a learning curve, it would still be simple enough for the new player to feel like they've really grasped the mechanics.

[i]The Snake strikes like dawn A burning day of dying Before the night falls[/i]
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Hey,

Henrix is a demoing machine and judging by the growing Bushido scene in Sweden they like his demos.

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i would agree with the wave, and the baks have some very interesting abilities that can effect the whole game like darkness at the right time, or spawning more baks, 

just my 2 cents 

 

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I'm with henrix too, the best demo games i've run have been with the wave in some form, though people love the prefecture models for some reason I just can't grasp;p and for me the temple exemplify everything cool about bushido, the feats, the traits, the fights, they always look good, even when losing:)

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The Wave certainly shouldn't be dismissed as simple smashers. That isn't a winning tactic. They are much trickier than that!

You could make a rather smashing band using mainly onis and onilings, but that is tricky to play as well.
The onis need to use their tricks to win.

(In fact I think the Prefecture is best if you want a simple army to just smash things.)

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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And don't dismiss the Cult!
They are not so hard to get the gist of, and show some of the other interesting bits of the game.

The starter is a little tricky, though. Three very slow (if efficient) blockers and two rear figres makes scoring VP hard.

And Ikiryo is awful to play against when you're not used to it.
(The first time I met her I almost lost interest in the game. I played Prefecture, who are very vulnerable to her. Not least as Hiro and Hanso couldn't succeed on Fear tests even when their lives depended on it.)

But skip her and one of the lesser Kairai and add Gengo, Nezumi and two small swarms and you have a good force to start with.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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GCT xoddsx wrote:

Henrix is a demoing machine and judging by the growing Bushido scene in Sweden they like his demos.

It would be interesting if this new players come & discuss about the game on this forum! We could gain new point of view :)

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I guess you you clarify what is your aim here, as i feel the topic has drift?
Is the question:
What faction can I play to learn fas te basics of the game?
What faction must i field if i want to organize demos, two newbies playing against each other?
What faction must i field if i want to run demos myself, with a newcomer as an oponnent?

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This topic interests me as I am a new player and plan on learning the game and introducing it to my gaming community. I have purchased the Ito faction starter so it is a given what one faction will be, however I do want to get another in order to properly run demos.

I really like all factions, but Savages, Yurei, and Temple appeal to me most and in that order given the Silvermoon is not out yet which would be first. Which would be a good addition to Ito for fun demo games?

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I feel that to demo bushido you have to show off the games unique features, in-game capabilities, and the spread of model types, so-

Samurai and ninjas (Ito, Prefecture)

Martial arts (temple, Prefecture, Ito)

Crazy yokai (Temple, Cult, Wave)

heroic combats (temple, prefecture, Ito, Wave)

beautiful models (everything!!!)

terrifying monsters (wave, cult, ito a bit)

crazy superhero feats (temple)

Crazy supervillain feats (Wave, Cult)

tactical maneuvres (Prefecture, Ito, Cult)

objective seizing.speed/numbers (Temple, Ito, Wave)

(not exhaustive, trying to be brief)

 

So if you were to demo Ito vs prefecture, you would miss out on some of the crazier feats, as most of theirs are melee based, and you would have very few terrifying mosters on the table, you would have heroic combats, samurai and tactical maneuvres covered though. I think the Ito make a good demo faction as they do cover almost everything. to play them i would suggest Wave because they introduce the few that Ito don't cover as well: crazy evil feats, monsters and they still give out Oni for those heroic combats.

saying that, do what inspires you, if you are excited about the models you have you'll run a great demo:) Hebrix and rudders are both Demo machines, and a lot of that is their enthusiasm:) 

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Great advice greeny!!! Thanks!

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I guess part of the selling point of Ryu is their classic style.  If you were to look at the Wave and Ro-Kan, you might get "Asian" but you probably wouldn't get "Japanese" unless you're a Japan-o-phile.

Besides, I kinda get the Ryu is a "white hat" faction, which appeals to a lot of people.  I'll certainly keep the other factions in mind.  It's an honest toss up between do I want a faction just for teaching or do I want a faction that I'll play myself and can teach on if I want. 

The biggest problem I have is I want them all.  I'm trying to decide if I want to buy just starter sets or buy a starter set plus some figs and dice each time to give folks some options.

[i]The Snake strikes like dawn A burning day of dying Before the night falls[/i]
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Oh, yes, enthusiasm is a selling point! wink

 

I still haven't painted my Ito, so I've not demoed that much with them. (Only using Yinkin's figures. He is another great demoer, by the way.)

But they are a very good faction to demo with. I like them a lot.

 

Jouer, we do have a couple of them around here from time to time. But Yinkin is the only one who is a regular, the others pop in from time to time. MattT, Orko, Dr.Kaos, pixelsked, deathbullar, and probably some more I've forgotten right now. smiley

The fact that we started a swedish FB group* probably lessens the swedish traffic here, but it has helped the local community a lot.

 

* Anyone may join Hokuō Bushido, naturally, but as it is all in bork-borkese I doubt it will be much fun.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Joey_Boy
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Henrix did a demo with me last week. Temple vs Cult and I really liked it, sure I was hooked on the minis and the fact that it's a game that reminds me of Confrontation beforehand but the Demo sealed the deal.

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I think Henrix has it spot on. Ryo is very accessible, but almost too much so for demo purposes. On a small scale demo like we prefer (approx 3 figs, 20 rice) they tend to win because their general armor and lack of finesse.

I think the intricasies of Bushido show up better if you use the other factions. Wave, Temple, Cult, even Ito have a little more to show when it comes to a small scale demo like the above. In my opinion.
 

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You can get rather tricky with the Prefecture in a demo as well. For the 20 point range use Bikou, Mikio and Daisuke. Sure that isnt really a typical Prefecture group, I am just saying that Prefecture also have multichoice and not so straightforward models. Or go for a slightly higher rice cost (25) and go with Mizuchi, Takashi Matsu and a general spearman. The opportunity to field a dragon is what got me hooked with the game. Field them against Ito Itzunagi and you can also retell the story of when the dragon was born and all that fluffy stuff.

Go Dragon Clan!

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You can definitely do a good ~20 rice force for the prefecture, but demoing them without any of the significant troop types..... no.

You want to show off the factions as well.

 

You can use the Prefecture, but it requires giving the opponent a lot of tips on how to manage them. But with heavy handed tips on how to use the Temple abilities it works fine.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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I think that a demo must use (at least a part of) the starter set. You wanna tell to the player: here's what  you gonna have for only 30£. Like that, the player will not be suprised / lost / disapointed when he buy a starter set. Every starter set are a must have for new player.

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What do people think about smaller starter sets? E.g 20/25 rice starters. Maybe two for each faction showing the internal themes of each faction? 

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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I don't really know.

For a real newbie, one starter is great, because you do not make (bad) choice that you'll regreat. And for experimented player, having every single minis available on their own is enough.

It guess that it's starter with tiny financial reduction. Here's an obvious (small) interest.

My point of view: if some player can economize a little money, it's does not counterbalance the fact that the model offer will be more complex for a new player. I hope that you understand what I mean.

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GCT Master T wrote:

What do people think about smaller starter sets? E.g 20/25 rice starters. Maybe two for each faction showing the internal themes of each faction? 

Maybe you shouldn't term it as a starter set.  Perhaps a starter expansion? Something you can tell players who just bought that Starter set that this is what they want to buy next.  And put in the description that this will help you understand the faction themes a little better.

[i]The Snake strikes like dawn A burning day of dying Before the night falls[/i]
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Toshiro13 wrote:

GCT Master T wrote:

What do people think about smaller starter sets? E.g 20/25 rice starters. Maybe two for each faction showing the internal themes of each faction? 

Maybe you shouldn't term it as a starter set.  Perhaps a starter expansion? Something you can tell players who just bought that Starter set that this is what they want to buy next.  And put in the description that this will help you understand the faction themes a little better.

Sorry maybe i wasnt clear, i meant replacing the exsisting starters with smaller ones. Not an addition to the Starter sets already in exsistance.

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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Okay. I thought that you meant additionnal starters.

Then I don't think that's a good idea, because you can't really play with less than 35 rice. It's a powerful feeling to get a simple starter and be able to defy any player!

But If you're on that way, I'd love to see a new Cult starter (with 35 rice) to replace the actual one. It  seems very hard to play to me.

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The reason i mention it was because quite a lot of the Rets who regulary demo the game to new players are suggesting playing with 20 -25 RC to introduce the game and illustrate the feel and key mechcanics to the factions.

To that end, people would have a couple of options of where they could start in the faction, which could easily be expanded upon and gave them a feel for a faction for a smaller initial outlay.

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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My initial thought was that it'd be pretty nice to have three or so small starters to mix your own with. Take any two, like.

 

But I think that the fixed 35 rice starters are much more user friendly. Just pick one up and play.
I think that is better - and you want 35 rice to get a good game anyhow.

Nor do I think the price is a deterrant. £28 to start a new game isn't something a mini gamer balks at.

 

(I also second another composition of the Cult starter, by the way. wink)

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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bah, the cult starter is fine, you just have to play it like a lunatic;) without zombies am I a cultist? no! Without the marionette can I chuckle maniacally about an overly complex plan that is destined to fail because it needs me to win an opposed Ki test? no! All I need is some Kairai, a Puppet master and the girl with the death ray eyes;) I suppose I'm biased because the demo that got me into the game was Wave vs Cult, and the cult did it for me right there, love at first sight, model wise in my opinion it is only second to the Ito set, although there are days when I still think it is the best sculpted set so far:)

back on Master T's topic- I can see where you are going with this, and I think the price would be the deciding factor- if it was around £20, so they could get starter AND something else for their 35 rice list then yes that would be great, I know a lot of the people who come across from the cheaper GW/Mantic games (cheaper per model, obviously hige armies cost more) baulk a bit at £30 for 5 models, but they do tend to perk up when you tell them it's a complete force. 

A possible alternative with smaller starters is to put them funky little rulebooks back in but with scenarios designed for 20-25 rice? 

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I would challenge as well the temple starter. Ekusa at 35 rice is a bet hard to win.
I belive that a starter should be te bulk of the faction, and ekusa is already too specialized

Mini starters, mmm why not. I like the idea, perhaps more in a bargain approach.

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You struggle with Ekusa at 35 rice?

heart him at 35 rice!

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

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Malhorme does struggle with Ekusa at every format ;- )

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Since this thread is already off-topic anyway. . . :)

Will the Kairai (Armoured, Farmer, Militia) of the Cult starter ever be available as single models or in a booster like the Bakemonos for the Wave?

Right now the only way to get a full contingent is to buy a second starter.

The Prefecture and the Temple are basically facing the same problem with the Yarimen and the Rice Farmer respectively.

 

On the note of demoing games:

After getting a friend into the game with my Cult starter vs. his proxied Savage Wave starter (he is now playing Ito), I did my (unofficial ;)) retainer duty and showed another friend the ropes this morning. I played a Cult list while he proxied the Prefecture starter. He is now deciding between Temple or Wave. yes

Both of my friends are experienced wargamers so I decided not to sugarcoat it and expose them to all of the game's awesomeness from the get go and didn't have many problems with this approach. I do however see the merit in using 20-25 rice for quicker demos.

Cheers, Leo

 

 

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I like the starter set exactly the way it is.  One of the things that got me into Bushido was the fact that the starters immediately put you at a standard playing size.  I don't think the price point is bad at all, but I understand the psychological appeal of getting below a certain threshold.

Let me present this as a counterpoint.  Privateer Press uses their battleboxes for their Warmachine demos.  The battlebox is worth approximately 15 points in the game.  You can certainly play a game of Warmachine at 15 points, but the game doesn't really get reasonable until 35 points (some would argue 50).  That means that after you buy the battlebox you still have to buy several more things before you're really ready to go.

To me, that's less appealing than getting a fully ready to go starter and removing models for demo purposes.  Again, just my preference.

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I'm inclined to agree with the other posters, the Starter Sets are good as is.

Starter set size is one of the things that attracted me to this game.  I did look at Warmachine/Hordes but the small size of starter sets discouraged me from buying in. 

[i]The Snake strikes like dawn A burning day of dying Before the night falls[/i]
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Regarding the starter sets, I have to agree. The fact that all starters are (roughly, now) the same point value and that it makes a complete and adequate starting force is a huge benefit! 

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I will throw in with this lot in saying I LOVE THE STARTERS AS IS!!!

They are also what drew me into the game. I love the idea that I have a complete, ready to play army with one purchase. You guys are great!!!

I would however throw this out there.....mega clan boxes with all the models to date for a fasction!!!! Limited run, Christmas special maybe. I know it is opposite what you were talking about with the small starters, but hey this got me excited!

ghostmachine
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the only thing i would love to see with a starter is the little rule booklet that was in the old sets

 

aryus
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Thanks for this thread as I am in the same situation as the OP. My gaming group has been looking at expanding their game options and we've been considering Bushido for a while. I took the plunge and ordered the Ryu, Temple, and Syndicate starters and have to agree that the boxes are nice as they are since they are already at one of the standard tournament sizes.

Some of the comments on the board have mentioned using Ryu to demo games. Would it better to face Temple vs. Syndicate for demo games? If so, what models out of the starter boxes work best (for demos) for 20-25 rice?

Thanks.

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For demo games, Temple.  Generally... Silvermoon Trade Syndicate take a game or two to really work out and generally have lots of extra text on the back of the cards compared to the Temple starter models.

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aryus wrote:

Some of the comments on the board have mentioned using Ryu to demo games. Would it better to face Temple vs. Syndicate for demo games? If so, what models out of the starter boxes work best (for demos) for 20-25 rice?

When me and Henrix have demo'ed with Temple, we generally used Yumi, Kenko and Atsuko. They end up at 22 points.
For STS I would use, hmm... Senpu, Tsubaki and Manu. Also 22 points.

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GCT Master T wrote:

Toshiro13 wrote:

GCT Master T wrote:

What do people think about smaller starter sets? E.g 20/25 rice starters. Maybe two for each faction showing the internal themes of each faction? 

Maybe you shouldn't term it as a starter set.  Perhaps a starter expansion? Something you can tell players who just bought that Starter set that this is what they want to buy next.  And put in the description that this will help you understand the faction themes a little better.

Sorry maybe i wasnt clear, i meant replacing the exsisting starters with smaller ones. Not an addition to the Starter sets already in exsistance.

Just seen this.

I dont think it would be a bad idea at all. Given the much larger pool of model from which to draw to create them it might now be a good time to do this.

yes

The Gaki may just be the single greatest creation of Master T.

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